Intermittent Brake failure on 458 | Page 2 | FerrariChat

Intermittent Brake failure on 458

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by eberro, Jul 16, 2015.

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  1. 458trofeo

    458trofeo F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2013
    4,426
    City of Angels
    Full Name:
    101 aki
    Def take to dealer and explain the problem, have them bleed the brakes, check the
    pads and the braking system and run a diagnostic on the ecu.

    Would not drive the car until the problem is assessed as it may be a serious safety concern, esp. on a high performance car.

    Lastly, even if dealer says problem was identified and fixed I would drive the car very carefully for a few weeks and be
    on the lookout for the issue.

    best
     
  2. justthebest

    justthebest Formula Junior

    May 14, 2014
    319
    Denver, CO
    I've never had the brakes fail in my 10,000 miles. I have had the brakes (right after a car wash) struggle mightily to stop the car due to cold (relatively) and wet conditions. They feel horrendous, but they've never quit working. That issue post-car wash is, IMHO, reasonable, considering the extreme performance available 99% of the time.
     
  3. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,101
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
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    Mel
    "but had little feel ( hard ) and there was zero stopping power in the brakes "

    So ... there seems to be a problem here .... and no adequate answer else than "go to your dealer"

    But Eberro also mentionnes "more same reports" on this very issue .... "I have spoken to a number of people who this has happened to. "

    Is here a designing problem identified ?
     
  4. rlips

    rlips Formula Junior

    Jul 29, 2011
    959
    New Jersey, USA
    hard to say, but air in the brake lines usually results in a soft pedal that sinks to the floor.
     
  5. groutguy

    groutguy Formula Junior

    Mar 9, 2014
    271
    Air in the lines typically feels like there is a ballon behind the brake pedal (squishy and wants to bounce back). A hard pedal is what you want to feel.
    Pedal going to the floor is a loss of fluid somewhere (either minor or major).
    Good pedal feel but no stopping power is usually either overheated brakes, cold CCM brakes, old dirty brake fluid, or glazed rotors. Glazed rotors will provide poor stopping power all the time and not intermittently.
    How long has it been since the fluid was changed? Bad brake fluid can cause intermittent stopping issues due to particulate contamination. Maximum fluid life for high boiling point race brake fluids is typically one year. Two years for moderate performance fluids such as the factory fill for Ferrari. Bad brake fluid will begin to break down the seals and create particulate contamination.
     
  6. vjd3

    vjd3 F1 Rookie
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jun 3, 2005
    2,565
    Massachusetts
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    Vic
    Search for "Bosch ABS ice mode" ... same symptom.
     
  7. 458dreamer

    458dreamer Formula Junior

    Jul 3, 2012
    762
    Dubai
    Losing brake power on track is pretty common once the brake fluid over heats and possibly develops bubbles. To get power back quickly you need to pump the brakes and the stopping power returns. Then just let the car rest and brakes cool down for 15-30 minutes.

    Despite living in an extremely hot climate I have not experienced this on public roads but it is almost a given on track if you do one lap too many.
     
  8. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
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    Jul 25, 2008
    14,101
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
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    Mel
    Why does the F dealer not come with solutions ?
     
  9. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Apr 6, 2004
    16,445
    ON
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    CH
    Probably not - 'Ignorance is bliss'
     
  10. andrewecd

    andrewecd Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
    539
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Andrew
     
  11. Barry P.

    Barry P. Karting

    Nov 22, 2016
    94
    Milton Keynes
    Full Name:
    Barry
    I work as a track instructor and one of our fleet of cars is a 458 spyder. We have had several instances where drivers believe they are hard on the brakes and the car fails to slow down, in every case the instructor sitting in the passenger seat has confirmed this has been caused by the novice driver pressing down on both the brake pedal and throttle pedal at the same time. I have been out with customers driving and had this happen three times in the last six months.
     
  12. daflk

    daflk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2013
    257
    Hong Kong
    Certainly not the case for me and I had hard pedal. Check out my other thread. Dealer claims air in braking system and that its been fixed.

    Sent from my SM-G9350 using Tapatalk
     
  13. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Too many BS electronic/computer controls taking control away from the driver. Worrying times and IMO the automotive industry has gone down the wrong road.

    It is critical that the driver always remains in control. Sure have your aids but the driver should have final say!
    Pete
     
  14. andrewecd

    andrewecd Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
    539
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    and no hand brake to apply either!
     
  15. REALZEUS

    REALZEUS F1 Veteran

    Feb 16, 2011
    7,658
    Bournemouth, UK
    The electronic handbrake functions as an emergency brake as well. It uses a different circuit AFAIK.

    Anyway, brake failure was much more likely in the old days, without any electronics present.
     
  16. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Er, no. Hydraulic part is the same and in old days no sensors to fail.

    Pete
     
  17. daflk

    daflk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2013
    257
    Hong Kong
    I am reposting this very useful PM from fellow forum member Entropy:

    Hi there

    Happy to offer my opinions, doing any diagnosis via the internet is always questionable.

    The Ferrari EBD brakes have a lot of different ways for things to "not work", though generally they work well, and most "issues" are due to poor pad/rotor bedding and (IMHO) how the brakes are used.

    There are a couple issues we've seen and experienced

    First, the booster itself can have issues and NOT throw a code. Essentially it's a pump and designed to multiply the brake pedal pressure - so it can be working, just not optimally, or have variability. When we have "pedal feel" or "pedal effort" or "soft pedal" issues in the race car (the same brake booster), changing out the booster is one of the first things we do (after doing a full bleed and check of course).

    Less common, but it happens, is that you do have air in the system. You can do a simple bleed in the 458 (just like any car) but to do a full bleed you need to use the computer to cycle the ABS and brake valves; it's a bit more of an undertaking.

    A common reason for "hard pedal, no brakes" is also that in some conditions, the ABS literally gets confused - for whatever reason. Slight grip disparities, slight wheel speed differentials, inconsistent brake system pressures. In those cases, the pedal will feel like a rock yet the actual braking pressure is low...so car won't stop. Most drivers instincts is to push the pedal harder; the actual solution is to get OFF the brake, let pressure go to zero, then get back on it. You don't need to come fully off, more like flex/relax your ankle. I've had this happen maybe once in 20,000 race track miles and 30,000 road miles, but it can happen. If it happens more often, you likely have an issue in the ABS ECU or one of the many sensors - but again, it's not too common. Another common error is people "think" they have full pressure on the brakes, but really don't. I don't know how you use the brakes.. yet another "cause" is that the system is actually working, but the braking conditions are not optimal (again, surface grip, rotor temperature, et al)

    As for the seized valve, not sure which you are referring to. if the bleed nipple, can't see thta having much of an impact. IF the valve that modulates brake fluid pressure in the caliper was seized, then absolutely, that will have a big effect on braking performance! Essentially the fluid isn't moving and the car is getting mixed signals - hence the "confused" comment earlier.

    To be sure, do the old school test....warm up the car, find a road with plenty of distance and runoff and no traffic, and go do some brake tests. As in, seriously maul the brakes, get them into ABS....you should feel the pedal vibrate, the car squirm and likely the tires squealing. Obviously, be going in a straight line on a good surface.....get heat into the brakes first, etc. You should be able to get the car into ABS pretty easily and you're not going to hurt it.....as a reference, when I'm doing full braking I typically exceed 1300psi of pedal pressure. Have not broken it yet.
     
  18. Adinakohn@aol.com

    May 13, 2017
    1
    we are dealing with a case involving alleged break failure on a Ferrari 458.

    Would anybody who has experienced any such issue please contact:


    GLINERT DAVIS LLP SOLICITORS

    SUITE A CUMBERLAND COURT

    GREAT CUMBERLAND PLACE

    LONDON W1H 7DP

    FAO: Gabrielle Roberts
    E-mail [email protected][/email]
    Web www.glinertdavis.com]www.glinertdavis.com
     
  19. lee2468

    lee2468 Rookie

    Jun 5, 2005
    6
    I also experienced this same brake failure in my 458 about 1.5 years ago - cars had been driven for 1 hour so brakes fully up to temperature but when coming off a motorway slip road and up to a clear roundabout quite fast I suddenly found without warning a hard pedal and zero stopping power. I managed to drop down a couple of gears and luckily nothing was coming around the roundabout at the time. Was certainly scary as I also had my son in the car so I immediately sent my car back to Ferrari main dealer and they checked everything and road tested the car for 70 miles but found no faults whatsoever with the braking system but did replace the brake booster valve as a precautionary measure. I had no further issues whatsoever from then on for another 1.5 years.

    I had read that this brake booster was a known problem but my Ferrari main dealer found no issues with the booster valve.

    My car was sold a few weeks ago and I was obviously concerned to hear that the new owner reported a few weeks into his ownership that he suddenly had the same brake issue so it certainly appears to be a very rare/intermittent but obviously concerning issue - the car was still under Ferrari warranty so he was going to get them to check it out - my only worry is that after reading this post and from my own experience Ferrari may not find any fault!

    After reading these posts and from my experience I personally think that it could be more of an ABS related issue as it felt the same as when braking hard on snow - hard pedal except in this case there is no ABS pulsing of the brake pedal whatsoever. Maybe its only occurring in a very rare circumstance whereby the ABS or sensors get confused and the ABS does not function as intended. Its all rather strange to hear that so many 458 owners have reported similar braking issues so it certainly should be something that Ferrari needs to look into much deeper.

    I can see there are now other reports of 458 brakes failing and people having been killed and the various engineers have reported no brake faults found just as this scenario had been predicted at the beginning of this post a few years back: -

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2049059/british-banker-jailed-for-mowing-down-and-killing-carpark-guard-with-his-400000-ferrari/
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-hongkong-banker-prison/ex-deutsche-banker-jailed-for-killing-security-guard-in-ferrari-crash-idUKKCN12P0AU
    http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-crime/article/2102488/appeal-granted-british-banker-jailed-over-ferrari-crash
     
  20. zakeen

    zakeen Formula Junior

    Aug 29, 2004
    989
    Czech Republic
    I have had this also.

    This is not the reason for what the people are explaining here. Its intermittent and doesnt happen constantly. Happens and then next time you can push the brake hard directly after 100 times and you wont encounter the problem again.

    While we are all aware that a warm up is required and sometimes engine braking is not enough.

    The main problem is that this happens like once every 400kms or so. Ive had the situation happen to myself 3 times. The next corner is fine. Ive taken my car to the F Dealer and explained the problem. They cant see it nor feel it, as they dont drive it enough or have that situation happen to them in a 10min drive.

    It has actually scared me a lot and I lose confidence in the car, because if it does happen at the wrong moment, my passenger, another victim outside the car or myself could die as a result.
     
  21. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,101
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
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    Mel
    Well Zakeen, make them drive 500 kms !
     
  22. Baitschev

    Baitschev Formula Junior

    Jan 8, 2017
    262
    Vienna
    I also have the same problem.
    2 years only one time.
     
  23. daflk

    daflk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2013
    257
    Hong Kong
    Happened once to me but I had major brake fade prior to that which was diagnosed to be brake fluids and a full flush and top up appeared to solve it. Dealer insisted brake booster didn't fail. My brakes are still occasionally too soft and takes too much travel but at least brake hasn't suddenly hardened after series of hard braking.

    Sent from my SM-G9350 using Tapatalk
     
  24. Lukeylikey

    Lukeylikey F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 3, 2012
    3,053
    UK
    Interesting thread. It happened to my FF one year ago. Cold temperatures but 20 minutes into a drive (brakes had been fine) I approached a roundabout at normal city speeds, brakes felt normal but I promptly slid into the back of an Audi. At first I thought ice had got the better of me - no pulsing from the ABS though. I got out of the car, grit on the road but solid underfoot and not icy. I was pretty confused, asked the dealer to check the braking system and he found no issues. Car was fitted with Ferrari supplied Michelin Alpins.

    I have driven many hard miles in modern Ferraris and no issues at all in warm temperatures and fast roads with good tarmac.

    However, on a pilota course with a friend, he found himself in Fiorano’s turn 1 run off with a shaken instructor who looked unsure if what the driver said about braking hard was true. Shows it doesn’t happen regularly at all, but hard to say if the driver got it wrong or not. He said he braked in time and hard enough but not enough retardation.
     
  25. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    I've once read here somewhere that if you resist the natural urge of braking harder on a soft pedal that isn't slowing you down, if you lift off and get back on the brake pedal quickly ("pumping the brakes") will restore stopping power back to normal. Has anyone actually tried this in practice?

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
    Afonsolaw likes this.

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