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Is a Dino considered a Ferrari ?

Discussion in '206/246' started by zvdxb, Jun 10, 2015.

  1. zvdxb

    zvdxb Karting

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    Yes we know the history and the link between the two but is the Dino really a Ferrari and more importantly , will the prices appreciate ( or hold their values in the future ) in the same manner as a genuine Ferrari ?
     
  2. Pantdino

    Pantdino Formula 3

    Jan 13, 2004
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    I would say the appreciation of the Dino has answered that question, but I have an addiitonal opinion.

    Enzo Ferrari sold the street car side of the business to Fiat in 1969, IIRC. Because it takes about 5 yrs to get a car from design to production, the Dino and Daytona were the last street cars that Enzo had much to do with (other than the F40, per some reports.)

    So by that definition all Ferraris since then have been high performance Fiats.

    Dinos and Daytonas were hand made. 308s were mass produced.
     
  3. TheMayor

    TheMayor Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Vegas baby
    No. And there's nothing wrong with that.
     
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  4. 2GT

    2GT Formula 3

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    In this era when storied names like Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Maserati and Alfa Romeo have all been purchased by large multi-national conglomerate automotive groups, the real question in my mind is: is anything authentic any more, or are auto manufacturers merely trading on these fine old names? Just as Henry Royce, W.O. Bentley, the Maserati brothers and Vittorio Jano would not recognize what their creations have morphed into, I believe that Enzo Ferrari, were he alive, would consider a Dino to be more of a Ferrari than anything rolling out of Via Abettone Inferiore today. As Shakespeare so eloquently proclaimed: "What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." The Dino's status as a Ferrari can never be established to every automotive enthusiast's satisfaction. As a catalog model, and by nomenclature, a Dino was never marketed as a Ferrari. As the namesake of Enzo's first son, lovingly dedicated to his memory, it can be nothing but a Ferrari. The semantics don't change the facts, particularly not the fact that the Dino is one marvelous automobile! Fred
     
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  5. 375+

    375+ F1 Veteran
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    Well said. Can we finally put this debate to bed>
     
  6. David Lind

    David Lind Formula 3

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    If you set up an FChat poll on this question, I would bet 95% would say "yes". Maybe more.
     
  7. dgt

    dgt Formula 3
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    Here's the answer I usually give to disambiguate these questions: It's a Dino (marque) where Ferrari was the manufacturer.

    Is a "Dino" a "Ferrari"? (Marque)
    No, the word "Dino" is different from the word "Ferrari" :)

    Is a "Dino" considered a "Ferrari"?
    Depends on the Dino in question however Dino's manufactured by Ferrari are usually considered a Ferrari at various events and in publications (and more so in recent times).

    ... like fchat ... in the model specific section.
     
  8. Ken Ivey

    Ken Ivey Karting
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    On the one hand, I like considering my car to be a Dino – unique from other makes, including Ferrari. However, if you look at the Ferrari production methods of the time, you will see that the engine designed in-house, the body designed elsewhere and the production done by a third party - pretty typical Ferrari.

    The value is in the desirability. Ferrari isn’t the only marque that has gained in value. If you have a low production car that is beautiful, functional and fun, it will be reflected in the price. 
     
  9. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie
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    This is one of our favorite topics, resurrected from time to time when the forum is quiet. Yet it remains an interesting one for us. And both sides of the issue get emotional! :)
     
  10. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
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    A Dino....is much rarer than a Ferrari. The soon to be prices will reflect that.
     
  11. Jakuzzi

    Jakuzzi Formula 3

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    I second that because I understand what the Mayor means. :)
     
  12. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    well owning a dino definitely gets points when Ferrari is selecting which clients get the special cars - so id say eff yes
     
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  13. abstamaria

    abstamaria F1 Rookie
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    The other month I received a letter from Sergio M, the Ferrari Chairman, that started with "It is a particular pleasure for me to know that a loyal client such as yourself has chosen a new 458 Italia." I only have the Dino and, while the Italia is not a special model, it was a nice letter to receive. So Sergio seems to include Dinos in the company fold.

    Andres
     
  14. 2dinos

    2dinos Formula 3

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    Another opinion:
    I go by where it's designed. Think of all the subcontractors in various countries making parts. Germany, UK, Japan etc, etc, etc.

    All these parts are made to specifications designed by ------ OR, these parts are made per designs by -------.
     
  15. ttforcefed

    ttforcefed F1 World Champ
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    yep and classiche is happy to help, verify, document any part of a dino restoration
     
  16. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    #16 nerofer, Jun 11, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2015
    Like each time someone tries "to draw a line in the sand", as Walter Sobchak / John Goodman would say in "The Big Lebowski", this is highly debatable...especially in the case of Ferrari, a manufacturer were there was never rupture in production, but a process of continuous slow evolution.

    If by "308" we consider the GTB/GTS, the 308 was certainly not "mass produced", because the total of all 308 produced is "about 13136" if we include the" italian market cousins" (208 GTB:GTS and 208 "Turbos"). This in ten years, which is about 1300 cars per year on average, whereas the Dino were about 650 cars a year on average I believe.
    It means that, on yearly average, the production of the 308 was double that of the Dino 206/246, which is certainly "something", but hardly a "massive difference"; and an average of 1300 cars a year is not by any standard "mass production".

    And the 308 was very largely still hand made: anyone who has sanded an early 308 steel body can attest of that, as very often some of the body panels are still made of different steel parts welded together and sanded, joints between panels are made of lead, hammered by hand, filler is used in large quantities before primer, and laid by hand, to compensate for irregularities in panels, etc...all those details that proves that it was not "mass production" by any means, and mostly hand build.

    So the "308 GTB/GTS" was certainly not "mass produced", but still largely assembled by hand; even if build in a yearly average that was double the "Dino", it was built on the same principles, with the same methods (and chassis still came from an outside provider: Vaccari & Bosi, bodies also, etc): production methods were almost identical, even if with some evolution.

    True, there were more 308 produced than "Dino", so the 308 is perhaps less "exclusive", but this for a reason: the 308 is the car that saved Ferrari from closing shop...

    ...furthermore, did "mass production" at Ferrari really occured, even today with 7.000 cars a year? Some automation came at the beginning of the nineties; even production of the 328 was not yet "mass production", and not yet automated.

    Drawing a line between the 246 and the "308 GTB/GTS" is also debatable considering that when the 308 GTB was at prototype stage, the first protoypes were all badged "Dino" and not Ferrari; and of course there is photographic proof of that. It was Fiat that insisted that the "308 GTB" was to be badged "Ferrari" only, this because of the disappointing sales of the "Dino" 308GT4 in the US.
    And the 308 GTB was indeed very much decided by Enzo Ferrari, and by him alone: it was him, and no-one else, who took his phone and called Leonardo Fioravanti to commission him to draw " a two-seat successor to the 246" that, at first, was not supposed to exist, when the sales of the GT4 proved disappointing. "and I want you to build it as quickly as you could, even if you have to use fiberglass for speeding up the production".

    So, wheteher we like it or not, the "308 GTB/GTS" was, in the minds of those who conceived it, a "Dino"...it may be not as exclusive as the "206/246" but it is a direct cousin,whether we like it or not; and beware, in a year or two, the "glass 308" values may well catch with the one of the 246...

    The production of Ferrari models always was a process of slow evolution: bits more modern here, more capacity of the engine there, but hardly any jump or leaps by innovation: the cylinders of the V8 are the same as the "Daytona", for instance, only eight instead ot twelve,which explain the rather odd 2926 cm3 capacity of the V8 (something close to 3.000 would have been more logical); so liners, etc...could be reused and were already available.
    This is one of the characteristics of Ferrari's line of models: a "308 GTB" is nothing more than a seventies itteration of the 246: the shape has been modernised; chassis and suspension are the same; engine is beefed up to eigth cylinders and that's all. A 308 is just a souped-up Dino: the two cars are very clearly related.

    One can prefer one from the other, but they are directly related, and built with the same methods; agreed, not the same numbers. But without the 308, there would be no "Ferrari" anymore today.

    My point is: certainly, there never was any clear line traced between the two at the time. You may consider that the two cars are different, that one is more pretty, more likeable, more valuable, more an icon than the other. But technically they are very closely related, and produced by the same methods.

    Rgds
     
  17. JazzyO

    JazzyO F1 World Champ

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    Yes. And there's nothing wrong with that.


    Onno
     
  18. dm_n_stuff

    dm_n_stuff Global Moderator
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    Well, let's see... reading the posts above,

    I think this pretty much settles the question, AGAIN.

    Or not... :D

    D
     
  19. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    By the way, after my long post above:

    Yes, of course, it is! I have never seen it under any other light than a true Ferrari, even if it's not written anywhere on a self-respecting "Dino"...

    Rgds
     
  20. Jezter70

    Jezter70 Formula Junior

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    #20 Jezter70, Jun 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Although Bruno, from 1974, dealers were allowed to put the Ferrari badge on the 246 , from new ..... but thats another story, of course!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  21. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    I'm not sure, as it was already 41 years ago...I was 14...but I am not sure having seen this in France.
    HOWEVER: at the time I was living in rural France and during these days, I saw perhaps ONE Dino every three years...
    So the statistical sample was rather small!

    (I fell in love with it with "the Persuaders" and this has not diminished at all as the years passed by, not one bit!)

    Rgds
     
  22. Jezter70

    Jezter70 Formula Junior

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    I also (partly) grew up in Rural France in the '70's, Bruno ...... not many Ferraris , Dino or otherwise, in Douarnernez, at that time, or i expect , now for that matter!!
    I do kind of recall the gold colour Citroen model in the background of my last picture however ..... was it the CX Safari, or was that an earlier model?
    BR,
    Jez
     
  23. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    I spotted it, of course. I guess it is not a "CX", 1974 would have been slightly too early. Very probably a "GS", I would say.

    Rgds
     
  24. Jezter70

    Jezter70 Formula Junior

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    Yes, could be .....Anyway, i have many vivid memories of the hydropneumatic induced seasick feeling , sat in the back on long and winding country lane trips!!
    BR,
    Jez
     
  25. SAT4RE

    SAT4RE Formula Junior

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    I've been on Fchat a long time, and as others have said, this question has been posed countless times. Heck, I remember a guy on here who argued, continually, that only 12 cylinder Ferraris were Ferraris! He was adamant about this! What I always find amusing, is how so many forget that Ferrari (the company) defines Ferrari. Ferrari, not us, decides who it is. As to the Dino, Ferrari makes no attempt to obfuscate the fact that it considers the Dino to be a Ferrari. Among the many evidences of this fact, is its inclusion of the Dino models in the list of Ferrari models, its poll held about a decade ago, asking Ferrari owners and fans what was the most beautiful Ferrari (they included the 246 Dino, and it won!!!), its use of the 246 Dino in all sorts of Ferrari marketing, most recently, the homepage image on the Ferrari Store website, its full support of the Dino cars in all of its restoration works, and, most recently, the clear statement from the head of Ferrari stating that a Dino will very likely be made, again. Who owns Dino? Who has the right to do such a thing? Ferrari. Dino is Ferrari's, and Ferrari absolutely considers Dino to be a Ferrari. It matters not what our opinions are, nor does it matter that at one point in time, 40 years ago, Ferrari may have said, differently. Again, Ferrari, and only Ferrari, defines itself, and Ferrari says Dino is a Ferrari.
     

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