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Jordan Confirms Toyota Engines to be used

Discussion in 'F1' started by senna21, Nov 15, 2004.

  1. senna21

    senna21 F1 Rookie

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    http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=173569&FS=F1

    Now the question is how much of an advantage is this for Toyota if any. They have had a great deal of experience in supplying many engines in a category (CART, IRL, ect..) so they certainly know how to do it. The real question is though will this extra volume of test data benefit them more than other teams. Testing is to be severely limited next season. Is this a way around the band, so to speak, and an opportunity to regain some of it's expense along with helping F1 in general.

    Ferrari really doesn't benefit from Saubers engine service other than recouping some development expenses since they get last seasons spec engines. Toyota will be supplying the same 2005 spec engine that they will be using. This will enable them to ostensibly run double the testing mileage they would be able to with only their own cars.

    Jordan hasn't been that competitive this past couple of seasons. With the Toyota engines, which have been rumored to be some of the best on the grid, could they be able to compete against the Toyota F1 team?

    Who do you think is getting the better end of the deal here? Toyota, Jordan, or F1? Do you think it's a good business decision? Competitive decision?
     
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  3. Tom S

    Tom S Formula Junior

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    I'm sure that Toyota will benifit through Jordan's feedback. Although I'm not sure how much the Jordan chassis (if it's as bad as this year's) will play into the information. Certainly it's unlikely Jordan will find any more HP, although engine/chassis info will help.

    I thought that this past season Sauber was running same spec engines as Ferrari. Didn't I read/hear that somewhere? Or is this yet another middle age moment?
     
  4. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
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    Yeah, Sauber used 2004 engines, but that was due to the new regulations (2003 engines wouldn´t work this season) so I suppose that they will be using an evolution of the 2004 engine next year, instead of the new 2005 engine.
     
  5. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    I think when a Jordan with a Toyota engine out qualifies the works Toyota team by a couple of seconds at Melbourne they will learn heaps.

    Unfortunately this will cause a major internal collapse of the team, with lots of falling on the sword and Toyota will go even further backwards.

    In the history of motorsport, I doubt whether a team, especially manufacturer backed has performed so impotently ... and seemingly unable to learn as they go.

    The other thing that could happen is that the Jordans go screaming backwards on the grid and find themselves battling with Minardi and the works Toyotas. This will show the world that while the Toyota engine might have the big numbers it is completely undrivable.

    Yes Toyota can only learn from this exercise and it should be the start of a turn around for the team/company. This is a where are we actually at test. And when you are confused about what to do, it is a great idea to put half the car into a another teams hand (chassis or engine) and see what a passed race winner can do with it.

    Jordan is no great team, but in comparison to Toyota they are bloody heros. You do the budget versus position comparison ... you will see what I mean.

    Pete
     
  6. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Just wondering, from the past threads to this one, you seem to be really down on Toyota. I know that you are not a fan of major manufactures being in F1, which is something that we disagree on. However, you seem to hate Toyota the most, there appears to be some kind of serious, deep seeded dislike toward them. I don't recall you expressing so much discontent toward the likes of Renault, Ford or Fiat.
     
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  8. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

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    I think Pete acquired his hatred for Toyota that solemn eve where he found the backseat of hit 77 Tercel to be just too small, for himself, and his at the time, super model lady friend. Having been slighted in such a way, the supermodel lady friend left Pete on account of his unsuitable back seat.
    I empathize with Pete. Damn those Tercels.
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Er, I own a Toyota :) ... and it is a great family car, if boring as possible to drive.

    I'm down on Toyota because they suck ... no other reason. Compared to all other manufacturers in F1 they have failed (so far).

    Lets go through the teams:
    Minardi - Doing a million times better than Toyota on 1/100th of the budget. The first to produce a titanium gearbox, etc. Infact if they tested more they would probably be advancing up the grid.

    Jordan - Again based on budget per result doing way better than Toyota. But I have to wonder (as I always have) about this team and Eddies motivation. I seriously believe that this team will move forward POST Eddie Jordan.

    Jaguar - Same as Jordan, but better again ... with possibly similar money. Giving Toyota a right kicking every race ...

    Sauber - Improving all the time ... that is the key. Toyota have not improved on their first season ... what gives?

    Renault - Showed some improvement last year ... struggled this year but you can see their focus is 100% racing. I question their driver choices personally, as they (other than Alonso ... maybe) keep choosing journeymen.

    BAR - Fantastic improvements this year ... lets hope they can maintain that momentum.

    Williams - Always there ... but wasted a lot of time (but made F1 interesting for a short while) with the strange front.

    McLaren - The speed is there as always but strange reliability issues keep holding them back. Very frustrating.

    Ferrari - Nothing to say ;)

    Toyota - They just keep burning money ... and choosing absolutely hopeless drivers. All I ask is they show some improvement, or otherwise prove that they understand racing ... instead of just going around and around, and trying to look good by running qualifying laps with no fuel.

    Pete :D
     
  10. imperial83

    imperial83 F1 Rookie
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    Jordan, Toyota, Minardi... who gives a crap!?!?! These are just team there to make up the numbers for the Concorde agreement. I don't care what they stick into their cars. As long as it is not a Ferrari, Mercedes or BMW engine, it does not matter.

    Toyotas are pieces of junk and will always remain back markers. $300 million $700 million $1 billion budget... it does not matter. For once I think PSK (Pete) is right... those Jordan cars will end up going backwards. I bet you Minardi out performs Jordan and Toyota next year.

    Red Bull Racing is the team to watch out for!!! :)
     
  11. senna21

    senna21 F1 Rookie

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    Although I think you are right that Toyota hasn’t done as well as their budget size I don’t think their in as bad a condition as you put them. First I had the pleasure of seeing the Japanese GP first hand and Jarno Trulli looked to be on pace until his tires went away. Sixth is not a bad finish for the first race in a new car. The reason he was in that car was because Renault screwed themselves after the Monaco GP. Jarno was showing better speed than his counterpart and after that race they soured the relationship with him. As such he stopped performing as he had. That I’m not to happy about because I think he’s a talented driver and I believe you always give your best even if you don’t like the people you’re working for. So, Renault shot themselves in the foot. Had they kept him happy they might have had a good shot at second in the constructors title. But, I’m not going to digress into the other teams.

    Toyota is the topic here. And I think they could be setting themselves up nicely. Yes they haven’t had the results they should have. They have said it themselves. Then again neither did BAR when they first got going. Now look at them. Renault isn’t a fair comparison because they’re getting back in F1 not starting from scratch. Jarno’s fast and as much as I hate to say it so is the other Schumacher. He’s not my favorite. He will add a lot to the development program though. Toyota likes to win. They’ve won and dominated almost all of the categories they’ve been involved in. Remember the Gurney GTP Eagles? World Rally? Their engine for the NASCAR Truck series is the best one out there. And when they get into NASCAR it’ll be over Ford and GM. Just as it is for them in IRL now. And they were only a flat tire away from winning LeMans with a ground breaking car: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/gtone.html . Toyota isn’t just in this for bragging rights, their in it to sell cars. I think to them it doesn’t matter what team is winning as long as it has a Toyota engine Toyota will come out ahead. Yes, they’d like the factory team to be one winning. But, unlike most teams I don’t think they’ll handicap others to make themselves look better. It seems to me that they feel that they should be able to beat anyone on a level playing field. If they can’t then they really don’t deserve the accolades that would come with winning.

    Then again they did cheat their ass off the last year they won the World Rally Championship….
     
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  13. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Hubert,

    Missed this post ... Now I like this version better than my own ... but I can tell you that no small rear seat would get in the way of ... er, you know what! ;) :D :D

    Seriously of all the Toyotas I have driven, only one has ever let me down (reliability wise) and in this case definitely not Toyotas fault. My only gripe is they are TOOOOOOO boring.

    Pete
     
  14. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Allow me to ask you this then, in the past 25 years, how many teams, other than Ferrari, have ever won a championship on their own (ie. build their own cars and their own engines)? If I recall correctly, the only other "complete team" that has ever won a race in the past 20 years is Renault, and they are not exactly a new team either, I am sure that you are well aware of that little fact. And I am also fairly sure that Toyota wants to be winning races just as much as anyone else on the F1 grid, you don't actually think that they are there just so they can be a back marker, do you? If you just don't like the team, so be it. But to be down on them and not even giving them any merits for being in F1 completely on their own, at the same time, supplying engines to Jordan and possibily allowing Jordan to stay in F1 because of it, is hell of a lot more admirable than McLaren, William, Mercedes, BMW, BAR or Honda. And how can you say that they are not trying to improve, did they not come out with a new car this season to try to turn it around? McLaren just had better luck with their "MP4-19B"? Toyota went out and got Mike Gascony, Ralf Schumacher and Jarno Trulli for the 2005 season, you don't call that trying to improve? With the exception of McLaren getting JPM to sub for DC, can you name one other team that has made a significant upgrade in their driver lineup for next year? Toyota just may surprise a few teams next season, much in the same way that BAR-Honda did this year. And when they do, they would have achieved it all on their own, just in the same manner as Ferrari has been doing.
     
  15. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Anthony,

    You missed plenty ;):
    - Alfa Romeo (first 2 WC's and races later).
    - Maserati (1957 WC).
    - Honda (back in the 60's Gurney (?) one a single race for them).
    - Porsche ... yep they have won a single F1 race in the 1.5 litre days.
    - Matra (? ... maybe not ;)).
    - Mercedes (1954 and 55 WC's).

    I do hope that Toyota improve, seriously ...

    Not down on them for that reason at all ... apologise if that is how it came across. Just find it unbelievable that they are so hopeless.

    Er, I don't think I said that (just reread my posts and I guess I implied that). What I have not seen from them so far is visual references that show they are on the right track. I guess ...

    ... that getting Mike Gascony is on the right track. Their driver selection shows (to me) that they are still lost. I'd have chosen DC over both of those drivers because they need somebody who can develop a car ... not journey men, but I will be happy to be proven wrong.

    Pete
    ps: Senna21's comments on Trulli shows why he is a waste of time ... and I completely agree, and believe that RS also has motivation issues. Toyota need self motivators, that will get in with their shirt sleaves rolled up and get the job done. RS and Trulli have never shown this sort of aptitude.
     
  16. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Not at all. All of the examples you cited are from a completely different era, which in this case are not comparable and threfore, pointless. Hence I asked you to name one team within the last 20 years or so, which puts us back to about the 1980s, the modern day Formula One series. And the only complete team to win races in the 1980's was Renault with Prost at the helm I believe.

    As for the Porsche example that you seem to refer to fairly often even in the past threads, I believe they were known as the McLaren-TAG-Porsche team, and it was Alain Prost that gave Porsche their last win in F1. I believe that Nelson Piquet and Nigel Mansell split the points which gave William the Constructor's title that year and Prost ended up winning the driver's title. I do not believe that Porsche ever entered F1 as a complete team, at least not within the last 20 years.

    My point is that to run a complete team is not an easy task, and of all the people that are regulars here on FerrariChat, you should know that. You are probably one of the few people on the racing forum that knows about and loves Ferrari before the days of Micheal Schumacher. You of all people should know that the development of a car can be very difficult and can be very costly, it may be even more costly than being just an engine suppier. In your earlier post you spoke of manufactures that are in F1 just so that they can say they are in F1, in that retrospect, are exactly what the engine suppliers are doing today. If BMW or Mercedes are so into the purity of the sport, why do they not field their own team? Why do we not see McLaren or William field a complete car of their own? Perhaps we can call McLaren or William as the chassis supplier instead. Point is, this is exacly why Ferrari is Ferrari today, this is why they are different from all of the other entries on the grid and this is what sets Ferrari apart from all of the other teams. Most of all, this is why Ferrari IS Formula One, they are the only survivor from the glory days of the 1950's and the only one that can claim true heritage throughout F1 history, in fact, they are in essence, the history book of what is Formula One.

    As I have a lot of respect for teams such as McLaren, William, Lotus, Tyrell and the other teams in the F1's past, I respect and admire teams that fields their own complete cars even more. The reason is simple, to win in F1 is hard enough as is, to win on your own merit is truly priceless. :)
     
  17. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    They did, but you are right it was in the 60's thus over 20 years ago.

    I also think Mercedes in the 50's would not 100% agree that it has got easier nowadays. They spent a fortune ... but it is impossible to compare different times.

    Yes 100% agree and I DO give Toyota credit for doing it themselves. I also was very disappointed when Honda stepped backwards and resorted to just being an engine supplier.

    BUT and this is a big but, Toyota only have so long before we just cannot keep on singing that same old tune. Currently they are having to race defensively to beat Minardis :D ... and they have been doing the same since they started.

    Pete
    ps:
    I'm clapping over here ... with a tear in my eye. Stirring stuff and you have my vote ;) ... and so bloody true.
     
  18. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    What Mercedes did in the 50's was amazing I think. I agree with you, it was probably just as hard back then as it is now, and I think the drivers such as the great Juan Fangio was even more incredible.

    I also agree with you on what has been happening to Toyota since they entered. In their defense, they also had a few miscalculations just like Ford did. I do hope that Toyota will not follow the path of Ford and pull out of F1 due to lack of results.
     
  19. Anthony_Ferrari

    Anthony_Ferrari Formula 3

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    I think that Toyota will start to win races in F1, but it won't be in 2005. They will succeed because it is what they do. They have won in just about every other category in motorsport and I have no doubt that they will eventually succeed in F1. I do however wonder about how they will win. In rallying they were banned for cheating . In F1 they somehow acquired the plans for the Ferrari F2002 and built it for the 2003 season.
    They will never win a championship with Ralf Schumacher driving for them as he is simply not good enough. I can understand why they might settle for second rate drivers (like Ralf) while they get the car right, but I hear they are actually paying Ralf a lot of money which doesn't make much sense to me.

    Toyota - I like the fact that they are making their own engines and chassis. I think they will succeed eventually, but they'll waste a hell of a lot of money on the way.

    One more thing - I don't understand why they based themselves in Germany. The UK is where the expertise is. They either have to pay UK workers big bucks to re-locate or they have to pay a lot to train their local staff.
     
  20. jknight

    jknight F1 Veteran

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    "Jordan deal 'is a challenge' - 16 November 2004
    Supplying Jordan with the same 2005-spec engine next year will be a 'real challenge,' Toyota F1 principal Tsutomu Tomita has admitted.

    The Japanese said a one-year agreement with the struggling independent team was concluded at the 'last minute.

    'But it is a (challenge) which we are happy to take on. We are pleased to be able to help another team, given the difficulties (in F1) particularly with engine supply.'

    Meanwhile, a Jordan spokeswoman denied that a Toyota-contracted driver, such as Australian youngster Ryan Briscoe, is a part of the new customer engine arrangement."



    2005 F1 should prove to be an interesting year! They haven't even started and it looks like Red Bull will have to look to a different engine supplier in 2006. My love of F1 still remains true to the Maranello red cars. Go MS and RB - I'll be there to cheer you on to a 1-2 sweep in Imola, Indy and Spa.


    Check out what JPM has to say - extreme childlike behaviour?? I couldn't believe what I read this coming from the mouth of JPM (but then perhaps I can):

    Juan Vows to Blow Kimi away' - 16 November 2004
    Juan Pablo Montoya is aiming to thrash 2005 Formula One team-mate Kimi Raikkonen.

    The pair will race against each other for the first time at McLaren next season, and 25-year-old incumbent team driver Raikkonen, a Finn, will want to 'blow me away,' Montoya suggested.

    'I aim to do the same thing to him,' 29-year-old Juan Pablo, who was born in Colombian capital Bogota and raced for Williams since 2001, told German publication Auto Bild.

    He added: 'A new team is like a new toy. I feel like it's my first day at school.'


    Sounds to me like Ron Dennis is in for destruction derby racing and not F1 - hope he has plenty of spare parts on hand. I can't wait for the first race and first turn in Melbourne! Perhaps in the "trading paint" that was aired on Speed Channel a while back, JPM should have stayed in Dupont #24 and Jeff should be the REAL RACER in F1.

    Carol
     
  21. senna21

    senna21 F1 Rookie

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    No, it sounds like he might have another pairing of the Prost and Senna types. Ron's a big boy. He can handle himself and his drivers. I'll give him that. The upside is we get to watch them hammer on each other! :) I wish Ferrari would do the same. :( If I owned a team those are exactly the kind of drivers I'd want in my cars.

    I'm going to show my age here. I found Formula one at the 1884 Dallas GP. It was a fun track twisting through the Dallas State Fair grounds. The fair grounds have one of the largest collection of Art Deco buildings in the country ( http://www.fairparkmurals.com/ ). It was a great setting. The temperature was above 100deg and I watched Rene Arnoux probably give the drive of his life. He stormed from the back of the grid to second place. Kiki Rosberg was the only one with a "cool-helmet" and he made no mistakes that day. He'd dueled throughout the race with Prost who in the final laps made a rare mistake and hit the wall. Drivers were dropping out all over the place. The track wasn't up to snuff and was literally disintegrating at some corners. Concrete being pulled up by the tires, horsepower, and down force of the cars. All through it though, for some reason, I was pulling for the guy in the plain white helmet in the red car with the gold wheels. I'd never seen a race before in my entire life but somehow knew I was witnessing something special. Drivers rising to the occasion and pushing the limits. Because of the conditions it was a race that anyone could have won and all of them wanted a shot at it. I've been a follower of F1 ever since and always loved Ferrari because of it. I still have a poster of Arnoux in that car and the memory is as fresh today as it was when the race finished.

    I don't know if the current state of F1 is inspiring young fans in the same way. I'm hopping that teams like Toyota and BAR Honda can bring the fight to Ferrari along with Williams and McLaren. I want to turn on the TV and say, "I wonder who the hell's gonna win this one today?" and for once not really know.

    And Pete you just need to get yourself an MR2 Turbo (348 performance) or Supra Turbo (355 performance). There are plenty of fun Toyotas out there, you just won't have the "hey look at me" factor. Oh, and if you don't want an older Toyota they're developing the new Supra to go after the 350Z. It should be fun!
     
  22. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Wow, didn't know F1 racing existed back then. Are they all One horsepower/four chamber "engine"? Did Bridgestone have to compete with Michellin for the horse shoe war too? :p

    PS: Holly cr*p, you weren't kidding about being old.
     
  23. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Does anyone know if Jordan is testing with Toyota engines or are they still using Ford engines?
     
  24. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Just thinking about this. Are we sure this does not mean Jordan (Katie Price, as I was recently informed) has not just bought a Toyota Corolla? ;)

    Pete
     
  25. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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    Who is Katie Price?
     
  26. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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  27. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

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  28. Gilles27

    Gilles27 F1 World Champ

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    I still don't think she should have had her boobs done.
     

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