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K & N for 360!

Discussion in '360/430' started by SrfCity, Jan 18, 2004.

  1. SrfCity

    SrfCity F1 Veteran

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,842
    Orange County, CA
    Anyone here put a K & N on their 360 and are you happy with it? They're $32 each and it seems like others are upwards of a $100 each. I've been happy with K & N for other applications so I'm looking to buy!
     
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  3. HGParts

    HGParts Formula Junior

    Mar 15, 2003
    456
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Heiko from HGParts
  4. SrfCity

    SrfCity F1 Veteran

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,842
    Orange County, CA
  5. SrfCity

    SrfCity F1 Veteran

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,842
    Orange County, CA
    I've yet to put it in my car.
     
  6. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    I don’t like the K&N air filters or any filter system that use oil – this can cause a world of problems with the sensors in your air intake – lots of problems with P 996 TT especially if folks oil filters after they clean them - cleaning and re-oiling is the second problem – you have to stick to a maintenance schedule to keep the filter working

    For normal use I believe the stock air filters are fine - I use the Tubi style air filters which cost around $90 each (I forgot which company actually produces them) – they are less restrictive - supposedly you can blow them clean with compressed air and re-use them up to there times

    Looks like you are after reducing cost - however if you are after increased performance changing the air filter to more free-flow-ones gains you nothing – the max. air flow through the intake is known and computing the necessary size of the air filter to be none-restrictive is a simple exercise - i.e. I have seen no gain in P cars even if it is dynoed without filter - and I assume F is smart enough to maximize this little detail in the proper way
     
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  8. HGParts

    HGParts Formula Junior

    Mar 15, 2003
    456
    Germany
    Full Name:
    Heiko from HGParts
  9. 355f

    355f Formula Junior

    Nov 1, 2003
    305

    In all of our dyno testing the filters made no difference.

    Performance filter- LESS filtration and I have all the info to support it!
     
  10. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    And even then, K&N's let in much more dirt... saving $60 a change to slowly pollute your very expensive engine sounds like a bad idea to me.

    I won't buy a car that's been running K&N filters.
     
  11. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    sure and I believe you – you can prove that filter x is better than filter y in a laboratory setup

    all I am saying is that the air intake system (tube size) can channel a maximum amount of air to the engine – one designs the filter size such that it does not restrict the airflow at all – F would be stupid not to do this – (the K&N web site actually has the formulas to determine the filter size)

    placing a more free-flow filter into an optimized air intake & filter system gains you nothing – you have to improve the air intake too (and the exaust system and and and) - this does not quantify the quality of the filter at all

    obviously if the filter is the restrictive part in the intake replacing it with a more free flow one will help - the aftermarket vendors want to make you believe that car manufacturers do not know that
     
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  13. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
    8,965
    Lewisville, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Guess
    The only time i have ever used a K+N has been on my Jet Ski's. All of the bikes that i have installed one on has resulted in a loss of horsepower versus a stock filter even with a rejetted carb.

    K+N on a modern fuel injected auto engine.... NEVER

    Rob
     
  14. TCM

    TCM Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    552
    Tyngsborough, MA
    The K&N filters are a waste of money on most modern cars. As stated above, the oil used to prime them can end up coating the MAFS wire and lead to engine lights and the car running in safe mode. You are better off altering the intake for effieciency and using the stock filters.
     
  15. SrfCity

    SrfCity F1 Veteran

    Nov 1, 2003
    9,842
    Orange County, CA
    Thanks for the info...........I'll scrap the K&N idea!
     
  16. udalmia

    udalmia Guest

    heiko sells good air filters, a tad on the expensive side, i paid $189 for 'em
     
  17. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Phil Hughes
    This is an age old debate, and I'm done with trying to Justify it, suffice to say that, in racing, you go for every optimisation you can find. Filters are the first thing to get changed, when converting a road car to race.

    The air mass meters do NOT suffer from oil contamination when the filter is oiled correctly, and allowed to absorb fully from the correct side of the filter.

    Again, only as good as the mechanic doing the job.

    Although not as dramatic as the 550, the 360's do respond better to hi-flow filters..... At least, every one of our 10 Challenge cars did, and the N-GT/C etc come with them as std, as do every F1 car.

    The 360 Filters are the same as Ssang Yong Musso, if that helps!! Green Cotton supply me and I sell them for around AU$250 Fitted while you wait.

    The dirt issue makes me physically laugh out loud....get a grip guys, come on. Maybe you should put double soles on your shoes, to get more mileage out of them too......
     
  18. Brian C. Stradale

    Brian C. Stradale F1 Rookie
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 17, 2002
    3,603
    Dallas, TX, USA
    Sure, you guys running true race cars don't care about it... you're going to rebuild your engine fairly regularly anyway. For me, I want my engine at peak performance at 20K miles without a rebuild. Further, you're doing constant maintenance on the car... unlike most of us who aren't going to check and oil the air filter before we go out each day... or each week.

    Over in the BMW M3 world, there are some small gains to be had from changing to high flow filter when you ALSO change the engine software AND/OR the exhaust. So, it doesn't surprise me there's gains to be had on 360C's or 360GT's. But that does NOT mean a filter change alone will be of any value in a Modena.

    With so many running K&N filters in the M3 world, a study was done on how much dirt gets in over time vs. other filters... and just how much better the filters flow over time. From that study, it was CLEAR that you do not want a K&N in your street car. Further, you can get just as good of flow AND actually keep out just as much dirt with other filter options (e.g., ITG). Soooo, the top BMW tuner developed an intake around that filter.


    If someone shows that the Stradale can get some horsepower from a filter change (highly doubtful), then I'll be looking to adapt an ITG or similar filter rather than K&N. I highly advise not putting K&N in any high performance street car. FWIW.
     
  19. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765

    >>>This is an age old debate …
    Yes and I don’t want to dig the info up – however from what I remember here is the reasoning for the problems with oil-based filter systems:

    There are paper, oil-foam, and oil-gaze filter systems – when filters start to clog they create a vacuum downstream in the air intake – paper filters are strong enough to not fail – both oil-based filter types will collapse once the vacuum exceeds a threshold value combined with a breakdown of filter efficiency – the oil-gaze system vacuum threshold is such that it can be reached during normal operation too

    So if oil-based filters are not maintained in a proper way they fail (loss of filtering) and additionally gaze filters (K&N) might show low filter efficiency during normal, high vacuum peaks - Brian’s observations are matched 1:1 in the P-car world with the addition that a lot of folks had already MAF failures with new filters – suggested procedure is to wrap filters in paper to suck excessive oil out

    >>>> the 360's do respond better to hi-flow filters
    The only way one can make me believe that swapping in a new (free-flow) air filter (which takes me < 5 min) produces more HP (7-10HP as claimed by K&N in general) in a 360 M, S, CS, without changing any other thing, is to prove that Ferrari engineers are stupid.


    I remembered the air filter brand distributed by Tubi style - TSI
     
  20. thomas_b

    thomas_b Formula Junior

    Sep 15, 2003
    765
    Nobody has doubt Heiko – he does sell good stuff and is very helpful in getting Ferrari parts nobody else can!
     
  21. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
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    Phil Hughes
    Brian

    You really honestly do NOT need to worry about dirt from Hi flow filters...as long as they are a good quality brand and fitted properly.

    I can understand your concern, and I have seen many poorly fitted filters...usually the dirt come around the edge of the seal surface where the new filter doesn't fit the casing properly, and not through the element itself.

    The 360's have had no major problem with air mass meters. I have replaced several, but electronic reasons are to blame, and not oil contamination. The high ambients in OZ play havoc in the engine bay, with astronomical heat soak.

    To oil the filters properly means they must not be used for several hours while absorbing. And they must be oiled from the outside, so that any oil is drawn into the filter.

    Once fitted, they can be forgotten about just as a normal paper filter. They will not even need cleaning at every service in normal conditions.

    They are a win win situation. Just have a look in the rubbish at your Ferrari dealer next time....mountains of perfectly clean filters thrown away....just because. You will no longer need to pay over and over again for something you only half use.

    The hardest part is to prove it scientifically....dynos only measure actual quantities, and not characterisics or throttle response. This is where the major gains are.

    Think of it like a tap (fawcet (sp) for you americans)........two identical taps will only flow X amount of water.....but the guy who turns it on fastest will fill his bucket sooner!
     
  22. paulie_b

    paulie_b F1 Veteran
    Consultant Owner

    Jan 13, 2003
    6,792
    Jupiter, FL
    Full Name:
    Paul Bianco
    I bought the Tubi air filters. Not sure what the results are.
     
  23. TCM

    TCM Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    552
    Tyngsborough, MA
    ferrarifixer:

    Can you elaborate on the electrical issues with the MAFS? I know that the 360 uses the same MAFS (Bosch) as most other European cars and I have not heard of an eletrical problem with them before. Usually on the BMWs the wire becomes coated with dirt, oil, etc. Does the car go into a limp mode? Thanks in advance for your help.
     
  24. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
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    I can elaborate only a bit, while waiting for a report from an injection specialist who is trying to repair them.

    The "crystal" that senses the air flow gets all sorts of rogue continuity readings. Some open circuit, some short and some just erratic resistances. I think its a diode or resistor problem, but it's proving hard to source identical components.


    Ferrari ones are over AUS$400 each x 2 per car. Bosch won't sell them to anyone other than Ferrari, but I'm sure there's a computer nerd out there somewhere that can re-create them. I've heard that some gains can be made by tweaking them too. Certainy some respond better than others, even when new.

    I'm just about to fire up my "360 speciale", which has an ECU program to eliminate the sensor, and use just the Lambda. It's basically an un restricted N-GT style engine (and program). The gains in air flow should be good because I've removed the sensor and the two meshes that are in the way.

    Speaking of Bosch......does anyone have a source for 360 Ignition coil Modules. I've heard that BMW are similar but haven't looked yet. Again, Bosch wont sell them to me.
     
  25. TCM

    TCM Formula Junior

    Nov 10, 2003
    552
    Tyngsborough, MA
    ferrarifixer:

    I am not sure where you can get Ferrari ignition control modules but you may want to try Ferrari World Parts located in Modena. They are the world headquarters for all parts and are extremely friendly, even if you cannot speak a lick of Italian besides "gratzi". They are located at the dealer in Modena.

    On a side note, the BMWs do exactly what you are reporting when the MAFS wire gets gunk/dirt/oil on it. Sends the SES light off and gives varied readings that cause the engine to constantly adjust timing and such. This may sound crazy but try sticking the MAFS in a cup of diluted Simple Green. Let it sit for 10 minutes and then remove it and clean the wire with a soft brush or towel. We did this on request of one of our customers and it worked great. Car ran perfectly fine after. This may be an option if you can't find the problem. Good luck.
     
  26. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    7,297
    That 'crystal' is a platinum wire, a very thin platinum wire. The MAS works by setting up a wein bridge and using the platinum wire in one leg of that bridge circuit.As air passes over the platinum wire, its resistance changes, the bridge amplifies this change and the ECM reads the mass that has just entered the engine. Knowing this mass it can compute how much fuel to add. Voila, perfect mixtures. After you shut down the ignition, and the car is warm, the ECM sends a signal to the MAS that causes it to heat up to 1000 dF in order to burn off any contaminants.

    Nice fix, just be extremely careful not to damage the very thin wire.
     
  27. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
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    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
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    Phil Hughes
    Thanks Mitch. The thin platinum wire has a "component" in it, directly in the air stream on the 360's. My guy says it's a "crystal" of some kind.

    Anyway, I fired up the 360 "speciale" today.........It's gonna be a sweetie. Running in next wednesday at track, then serious track day on 7th Feb.

    Basic spec is as follows.........

    Ultra Lightweight pistons reprofiled, comp ratio nearer 12:1
    Hi lift, longer duration inlet cams, timed as N-GT (step 2.5)
    Locked non variable but std exhaust cams, timed as N-GT (step 2.5)
    All 40 valves replaced for significantly reprofiled and tufftrided.
    Opened air mass meter bodies, no sensor or meshes.
    New ECU program inc quicker throttle action on shifting and 9000rpm limit
    Lightweight flywheel
    Elf 102 octane fuel
    "X" style (self scavenge) exhaust system from manifolds back
    Hi flow air filters (BMC)......naturally.

    I expect about 450+BHP, will test when properly run in and report.

    Have also shortened 5th (1.1:1) and 6th (1:1) ratios and refined them NASCAR style.
    Modified diff settings for higher static locking, std drive and overrun at present.
     
  28. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    [Anyway, I fired up the 360 "speciale" today.........It's gonna be a sweetie. Running in next wednesday at track, then serious track day on 7th Feb.

    Basic spec is as follows.........

    Ultra Lightweight pistons reprofiled, comp ratio nearer 12:1
    Hi lift, longer duration inlet cams, timed as N-GT (step 2.5)
    Locked non variable but std exhaust cams, timed as N-GT (step 2.5)
    All 40 valves replaced for significantly reprofiled and tufftrided.
    Opened air mass meter bodies, no sensor or meshes.
    New ECU program inc quicker throttle action on shifting and 9000rpm limit
    Lightweight flywheel
    Elf 102 octane fuel
    "X" style (self scavenge) exhaust system from manifolds back
    Hi flow air filters (BMC)......naturally.

    I expect about 450+BHP, will test when properly run in and report.

    Have also shortened 5th (1.1:1) and 6th (1:1) ratios and refined them NASCAR style.
    Modified diff settings for higher static locking, std drive and overrun at present.[/QUOTE]






    I notice that you are using a much earlier spec (step 2.5) than the current evolution from Michelotto. As money isn't an issue for the owner, what's the reasoning here?
     

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