LEC and VET similar to ALO and HAM?

it was not mid season Williams, it was even before the season begun!!!! that's why Mclaren protested Ferrari flexy floor in Australia, and that was the first thing the arowsed suspicions...how the hell did they knew about it!!???

 

You are right. If only Alonso kept his head down, focused, and played the long game, he might have used his experience to beat Lewis in 2007, and become the WDC. That would have carried on into 2008 as well.

But let's get real. We are talking about Alonso here. A big whiner when things does not go his way.

 

I think you are wrong here. Ron did know about this, and when he found out, he rang Max about this, within the same day if i recall.

Secondly, it is naive to claim that F1 teams don't have the time to alter the car designs, etc. The cars changes all the time. Within two weeks, the cars that come to Australia looks nothing like how they turned up for pre season. And based on Alonso's emails to Pedro de la Rosa, they were focused in depth of the Ferrari braking system. How hard is it to change the braking system?

I for one, thought that Alonso got off scott free not once, but twice. Here, and Singapore 2008.

 

So, why was McLaren so heavily penalised if they held their hand up from the begining ?

 

Because they still got caught with their hands in the cookie jar! You can't steal other teams data and use it to improve your car and then claim you lnew nothing about it

 

I answered that post in a PM.

 

And whom did you send that message?

 

You, of course. Check your conversations box.
No reply needed.

 

Arrived hours later...as expected personal attack instead of reasonable points...

 

Hamilton wins again!!!!

 

Lots of contrary reports on this. Even Max acknowledged that Ron called him and informed him as well as Bernie on this. But i think the key point here is, how fast did Ron call and informed him? When Alonso threatened Ron with this details, he ignored it initially. In a sport this sensitive, this could be a turning point already.

Furthermore, There is also the personal thing Max had against Ron. Point is, Mclaren were too deep in crap that they could not appeal at all especially for that such a silly stupid amount. And the FIA would looks like fools if they gave in to mclaren. Catch 22 situation.

Which is why i also think that FIA had instructed Mclaren to lose the 2007 to Kimi. For a team in its prime, i find it so weird that they left Hamilton out on shot tyres at China, and then of course, the part where Hamilton 'accidentally' turned off the engine or some sort in Brazil. Can you imagine Hamilton winning the 2007 WDC in a Ferrari influenced car? It will be a media circus.

 

I think a lot is being made of Ron phoning Max to admit what had happened, but remember, he did this after being threatened by Alonso. Even if he claimed he, Ron Dennis, didn’t know until Alonso threatened to blow the whistle, the fact is that the team were using the stolen information and testing parts and systems developed using those plans, with emails between the test teams and the factory showing that this was happening. It isn’t credible to think that only on the particular day Alonso lost his rag and decided to rat, it was that day that the team were starting to use the information - it wasn’t, it was much earlier, and the car was influenced by the designs and systems they were provided with as the season went along, with the McLaren getting noticeably better in various areas

 

Yes. Its a matter of when the team gained the information, versus when Ron knew about it.

 

McLaren was found guilty, I understand the condemnation, also the loss of points, but it's the fine that I still fing staggering.
100M $ , that's enough to put a lot of teams out of business, and I think that's what Max Mosley intended.
Why did they not simply suspend McLaren for a number of races instead?
The FIA would have obtained the same result, without putting the team in peril (potential closure, job loss, etc ...).
Or maybe Mosley couldn't care less about that?

 

I agree with you. That amount was a crazy amount and it was enough for Mclaren to close shop. I have some link below for you to read the feud between Max vs Ron:

https://www.racefans.net/2011/02/24/ecclestone-book-reveals-animosity-dennis-cost-mclaren/

Tom Bower’s new book on Bernie Ecclestone shows how his hostility towards Ron Dennis cost McLaren dearly in 2007.

Ecclestone says: “When Flavio [Briatore] stuck a knife in my back, he charmed me and said, ‘It’s good for you to let out some blood.’

“But when Ron puts the knife in, he wants you to know that he’s in charge and he’s killed you.”

It shows how some of F1’s recent scandals were driven by jealousies between Ecclestone, Dennis, Briatore and former FIA president Max Mosley.

During the ‘spygate’ affair in 2007 Fernando Alonso waited until the Hungarian Grand Prix to threaten Dennis by revealing incriminating emails.

But he had already revealed their contents to Briatore two weeks earlier, who in turn had shared the details with Ecclestone and Mosley.

Ecclestone later talked Mosley down from banning McLaren for two years (“bit heavy”, he said) and instead imposing a record $100 million fine. Mosley joked that it was “$5 million for the offence and $95 million for Ron being a ****”.

Briatore was later embroiled in a cheating scandal but remains a close ally of Ecclestone’s. The pair share an unusual nickname for Lewis Hamilton -‘Jumbo’.

But Ecclestone is less comfortable with Mosley’s replacement as FIA president, Jean Todt, of whom Ecclestone says: “He put the president’s hat on and his personality changed”.

The book also reveals Ecclestone draws a ?�?�2.5 million salary from F1 owners CVC plus ?�?�1 million in bonuses.

F1 is set to be broadcast in high definition for the first time this year but according to Bower FOM had “perfected” their HD broadcast in 2006.

Among the many anecdotes from earlier in Ecclestone’s career is this about a failed bid for a Russian Grand Prix in the early eighties: “The city’s mayor wanted us to race across the cobblestones in Red Square and put the entire thing through his wife’s bank accounts.”

 

Now, look at the article and if I recall, the Spygate surfaced sometime in August. Mclaren and Fernando had the drawings and technical details by March (i think). So take that into account how many months Mclaren has these files in possession vs when Ron alerted the FIA on this. Also, Alonso threatened Ron with this after the qualifying and race win Hunagry, after he sabotaged Hamilton's qualifying .

I think Ron sat on this, and thought it was a bluff before realizing it was for real, and it was too late. I find it so weird that Fernando was able to get off scott free on this, while acknowledging that he exchanged emails info with PDLR on the Ferrari brake settings.

 

Whistleblowers are rarely sanctioned, look at all the dirty rats that ratted on their mafia bosses in the 80’s and 90’s, scum like Gravano and co who killed tens of people, maybe even hundreds , between them, and yet they got sweetheart deals doing a few years and then a life on uncle sams dime in the witness protection programme. Alonso was prepared to speak out and nail Dennis, hence Max Mosley was happy as a pig in **** over his lack of sanction.

The way Ross brawn explained it at a dinner party once, there was a stark choice between either a massive **** off fine, or exclusion from F1 for a year or more, the fine was Ron Dennis favoured penalty as the team at the time could almost afford to swallow it

 

Furthermore as far as I remember McLaren did not have to pay the fine immediately but the money was taken from their payments be the FIA.... what is the heritage payment McLaren is getting? 50 mill? So the fine was basically 2 years of heritage payment, considering the damage they did to the heritage of F1 I think this fine is not too bad...
Certainly banning the cars was not a real option as it would have taken away the thrill of the rest if the season... the most important to them is to keep up the WDC. Benneton was excluded to make the WDC interesting, McLaren not to keep it interesting.
I also still do not believe in this conspiracy that the WDC was given to Ferrari... Lewis and Fernando were in front at the points on the last race so in case anything would have happened to Kimis car there would have been no chance to correct that in the favour of Ferrari. Looking at the actual race it would have been even enough for McLaren if ANY of the Ferrari ran into problems...

Gesendet von meinem SM-G930F mit Tapatalk

 

Mods should ban him.

 

For a while, when I lived in South East London, my neighbour was a retired cop, who knew Bernie Ecclestone very well.
Over a bottle of wine, he would tell you many stories about Bernie, going back to when he started a second-hand car dealer .
Bernie had the reputation for being a crook at the time and later when he set up his car auction business.
He was investigated several times for insurance scams, apparently.
If the stock didn't shift fast enough, his car lot would be mysteriously raided at night and the vehicles paint damaged with acid.
Insurance claims would follow, helping Bernie with his cash flow problems.
There were several arsons on his premises, I was told, that were never solved .
Bernie was suspected and questioned many times by the police, but never nailed for any of it though.
There were also complaints about unpaid bills, or late payments to the point that no local tradesman wanted to work for him.
Bernie was really a hard man to deal with in his early days!
The story of how he got Brabham's and then Tauranac's shares of the racing team at rock bottom price is an eye opener on what was to come!

 

Thank you !

 

Bernie was definately what we could call a ‘character’, and he allegedly knew the Great Train Robbers well, and there were even rumours at times of a tenuous connection to the actual robbery, or certainly funds from it, but totally unsubstantiated of course. If he weren’t such a character though, f1 wouldn’t ever have reached the heights it once reached, and his leaving has diminished the show considerably as the new owners are far too pc for their own good

 

Bernie is the man who dragged F1 out of the amateur club racing it was to make it a global multi $ billions business with a worldwide audience.
He will be remembered for that.

 

I read a book about Bernie back in 2017. When the police chief found out that he reversed the car mileage, Bernie cheekily asked him if he would put risk to all the livelihood of Bernie's workers, should the cop arrest him. The cop thought about this, and decided not to arrest Bernie.

He was a massive cheat even from the beginning of time.

 

Another trick of Bernie apparently, was to raise a big stock of second hand cars for sale without spending any money buying them.
Once he had secured lease on a suitable building, he would visit other dealers in the area offering to sell some of their cars against commission.
They often took up the offer, and the vehicles were transported to Bernie's new premises where he would flog them.
It took time for him to pay back the owners though!
With the money he made, he did set up other outlets in different parts of London using the same method.
His empire grew up at the expense of other dealers going out of business; their money was tied up in their stock, but Bernie's wasn't.
The success of this scheme gave him the idea of opening a car auction, that became big business in the 60s.