Leiters is OUT ! End of the V12? | Page 5 | FerrariChat

Leiters is OUT ! End of the V12?

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by JTSE30, Dec 20, 2021.

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  1. paulchua

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    if the argument is Enzo would have preferred to lose in a V12 than win in a V8, I think the answer should be obvious.

    I often understand now why Enzo didn't like so much of his clieantle.
     
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  2. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie
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    I have little to add to this discussion, but my only thought is that there is a magic in a naturally aspirated Ferrari V12 engine that will never be matched by any other brand or any other Ferrari. I really feel that once you have one of these cars you will never be satisfied going back to anything else.
     
  3. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Perhaps, in some alternate reality where Enzo Ferrari builds electric motors and battery packs, sure, anything is possible.

    Otherwise, where did you find any reference whatsoever to Piero Lardi Ferrari speaking to his father's ability to make electric race cars that dominate liquid fuel combustion cars and how would that be any less conjecture than anyone else? Nevermind that, in reality, electric race cars lose to combustion race cars. Please provide that link you imply has occurred. Please realize that electric cars were an option for Enzo even in his youth, but, it was apparently not sufficiently interesting to him to pursue...or so it would seem...
     
  4. Jpacione

    Jpacione Karting
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    I may not be seeing what you are referring to. The sports car record holder is the GT2RS at 6:43. In the prototype class, the Porsche 919 hybrid knocks that down to 5:19, which is insane, but not production worthy. The Tesla Plaid is clocking in at 7:35. Here is the link to what I’m seeing: https://www.nuerburgring.de/info/nuerburgring/records?locale=en. What numbers were you referring to?
     
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  5. wrxmike

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  6. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    @512tr1992 @wrxmike

    another story link with some different details:
    https://pledgetimes.com/ferrari-increasingly-digital-the-new-organization-is-underway-formulapassion-it/

    ######

    Some analysis here...

    First, I believe it is not possible that "Davide Abate" is a replacement for Michael Leiters. I am not sure how the Quattroruote came to that conclusion.

    Here is what I find on Davide Abate:

    First, from Ferrari January 10, 2022 press release:
    Davide Abate will take over the reins of the infrastructures (Chief Technologies & Infrastructures Officer), in order to align and optimize the relationship between development and production, improving processes. Abate has been with Ferrari since 2012, and was already Head of Technologies.

    Second, from Ferrari Magazine:
    https://www.ferrari.com/en-QA/articles/60-years-of-mid-engine-masterpieces-ferrari-sf90-chassis?amp=true

    It’s yet another groundbreaking facet of the SF90 Stradale, the most technically dense road car that Ferrari has ever made. ‘There are over 1000 more components than there are in the F8 Tributo, yet this car has the same length and wheelbase,’ says Davide Abate, Head of Technologies.

    The SF90 Stradale’s ‘body-in-white’ is the first of a new spaceframe family. Over time, there will be three Ferrari sharing some of the SF90 Stradale’s modular hardware, although this model is the most complex of the trio. To this end the body ‘uses new materials to push performance to the maximum,Abate explains.

    ‘We use cold joining solutions rather than welding, for strength, the SF90 Stradale featuring no less than 420 of these rivet-bonded connectors, which is over 50 per cent more than for the F8 Tributo,’ explains Abate. This is complemented by some 30 metres of welding to produce a bodyshell that is 40 per cent stiffer in torsion and 30 per cent stiffer in bending than the F8, making it the stiffest-bodied regular Ferrari production car yet.

    To me, it is obvious that Davide Abate is an engineer whose recent focus as been on materials/composites, absolutely nothing to do with designing engines. Therefore, in my opinion, he is NOT a replacement in any manner for Michael Leiters.

    ########

    Additional analysis from simple web searches:

    Gianmaria Fulgenzi

    From Ferrari press release;
    Gianmaria Fulgenzi will be in charge of product development (Chief Product Development Officer); has been working for Ferrari since 2002, with a career that developed between production and Sports Management, where he was in charge of the supply chain.

    >>BACKGROUND:
    In 2001, he moved to Piaggio Aero as head of Industrial Engineering and two years later he moved to Ferrari has head of Mechanical Technology,
    before managing the Foundry department as from 2006. From there he transferred to the Engine area, overseeing all phases of production of the Ferrari
    and Maserati engines. Two years later, he was Product Development Team Leader, with the task of managing every detail of the design of the road going cars.


    From 2015 to 2019 he was Head of Rear Engine Car platform, overseeing the design of rear-engined cars, initiating and following the development of the road-going SF90.

    At the start of 2019, he was appointed Head of Supply Chain for Scuderia Ferrari, ensuring the supply of components, in budget, of the right quality and on time. He also researched the best possible technologies and production processes, aimed at reducing component production time, while improving quality at the best possible cost.


    In my opinion, if any individual could be considered a replacement for Michael Leiters it is Gianmaria Fulgenzi, but, even then, not a lot of recent focus on engine development (i.e. managing Supply Chain)

    ########

    Ernesto Lasalandra

    he was appointed Chief Research & Development Officer: like Vigna, he too comes from STMicroelectronics, where he was the general manager in the same sector. It will bring over 20 years of ‘electronic’ experience to the Maranello automotive format. His deputy will be Philippe Krief, formerly of Ferrari.

    >>BACKGROUND:
    https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/author/37301058400
    Ernesto Lasalandra received the M.S. degree in electronic engineering from the University of Pavia, Pavia, Italy, in 1997. Since 1998, he has been with STMicroelectronics, Milan, Italy, where he is currently the Product Development Director. His interests are in the design of analog integrated circuits for microelectromechanical systems

    MEMS is a chip-based technology, known as a Micro Electro-Mechanical System.

    http://2016.sensorapps.org/sites/2016.sensorapps.org/files/SAS-2016_program_v12-web.pdf
    Dr. Ernesto Lasalandra, STMicroelectronics
    Topic:
    The sensor world beyond Motion MEMS
    Abstract:
    From the Nintendo Wii—arguably the first mass consumer-market product enabled by MEMS and Sensors—to Smartphones, which have been the most recent high-volume driver of MEMS and Sensor adoption, we have seen dramatic growth and change in the marketplace. Still, while we’re far from exhausting the potential of existing MEMS in existing and derivative applications, the best is yet to come. The next wave of MEMS development is moving toward actuation and, while the ripples from these beautiful little machines have been building slowly for years, as they converge with those from the Internet of Things, the ride is about to get more exciting! Some examples of what we are seeing as first applications include tiny mirrors that enable people to interact more naturally with technology, smaller, faster autofocus solutions for cellphones and new types of printheads for 3D printing - and this is just the beginning.

    Speaker Biography:
    Ernesto Lasalandra was born in Broni, Italy, in 1972, and graduated with a degree in Electronic Engineer from the University of Pavia, Italy. He joined STMicroelectronics in 1998 in the team that started the MEMS adventure. In few years under his technical guidance on MEMS design and electronic design ST three axis accelerometers and three axis gyroscopes changed the user interfaces world.
    Ernesto has piloted successful stories with microphones, magnetic sensors, environmental sensors, mirrors, actuators and touch sensors. He has numerous papers and publications on MEMS area.
    Currently he is Analog & MEMS Group R&D General Manager.


    ########

    Philippe Krief
    Apparently a great Chassis Engineer:
    From November 2015:
    https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/features/car-culture/ten-good-men-and-giulia-car-november-2015/
    Philippe Krief, the Ferrari chassis engineer responsible for the Ferrari 458 Speciale. I feel I need to add a few exclamation marks in now, just for effect: !!!!!!!!
    <...>
    Krief is told to assemble a crack squad of just ten people, to hide in a secret location and create the perfect Alfa sports saloon for the 21st century. Talking to CAR as Giulia was first unveiled back in June, Krief described the process: ‘I called them one by one, like Mission Impossible: you choose your guy, you call – okay, they come! I called one guy in Australia, who had worked with me and quit the company. Three years later he’s working in Australia for another car maker, I call him and say, “What do you think?” And he says “I’m your man”’.

    ########

    Andrea Antichi

    was appointed Chief Manufacturing Officer; he was previously Head of Vehicle, and has been with Ferrari since 2006.

    actual previous title "Head of vehicles assembly"
    https://www.ferrari.com/en-QA/articles/60-years-of-mid-engine-masterpieces-ferrari-sf90-chassis?amp=true

    The installation is complex, as Andrea Antichi, Head of Assembly, explains: ‘Structural glue is applied automatically to each individual car. The carbon fibre panel is then secured with bolts, each one tightened to specific torque figures.’ The bolts are attached by hand, and then checked not only for the correct torque but for the angle at which the bolts enter their holes.
     
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  7. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    here is the english translation:

    The Ferrari launched the new organizational structure announced shortly before Christmas with the exit of some important managers like the Chief Technology Officer, Michael Leiters, and the production manager Vincenzo Regazzoni. The reorganization, according to the Maranello company, is consistent with the "strategic objectives of enhancing the exclusivity of the brand, enriching the excellence of the product, remaining faithful to its sporting DNA and focusing on carbon neutrality by 2030". Furthermore, the new structure "will further stimulate innovation, optimize processes and increase collaboration, internally and with partners, expanding the leadership team through the promotion of internal talents and the strategic inclusion of certain skills". “We want to push the boundaries further in all areas, using technology in a unique and Ferrari-unique way. The new organization will improve our agility,

    Product development and R&D . The reorganization, in particular, provides for the creation of some functions directly reporting to Vigna. In fact, the "Product Development and Research & Development" department was born, which will have the task of creating the Ferrari cars and will be entrusted to the leadership, as Chief Product Development Officer, of Gianmaria Fulgenzi (in Maranello since 2002 and most recently Head of Supply Chain della Gestione Sportiva), and, as Chief Research & Development Officer, of Ernesto Lasalandra, who joins Ferrari after more than 20 years of experience at STMicroelectronics, the multinational microelectronics from which the same Vigna comes. Lasalandra will have veteran Philippe Krief as deputy

    Digital and technologies . In addition, the new "Digital & Data" function was created, with the task of accelerating the digital transformation of the Emilian company. It will be led, in the role of Chief Digital & Data Officer, by Silvia Gabrielli, in Ferrari since 2019 but with a past at Microsoft. To strengthen the alignment between the development and production of the cars and ensure maximum collaboration throughout the entire process, the "Technologies & Infrastructures" function was created: it will be led by Davide Abate, former Head of Technologies and at Ferrari since 2012. Abate essentially replaces Michael Leiters.

    Purchasing and production. Another executive arrives from STMicroelectronics. This is Angelo Pesci, appointed Chief Purchasing & Quality Officer and head of the function of the same name. Andrea Antichi, current Head of Vehicle and at Ferrari since 2006, was appointed Chief Manufacturing Officer and number one in production activities, a role held by Regazzoni until a few weeks ago. Finally, the "Internal Audit and Compliance" function will be led by Marco Lovati as Chief Internal Audit Officer and by Sabina Fasciolo in the role of Chief Compliance Officer. No changes are foreseen for the other functions and for the respective managers: Brand Diversification (Vigna ad interim), Communication (Charlie Turner), Design (Flavio Manzoni), Finance & Services (Antonio Picca Piccon), Sports Management (Mattia Binotto) ,

    ----

    My comment: if "Davide Abate" truly replaces Michael Leiters, it is shocking that Davide's role is within the 'Digital and technologies' group lead by an ex-Microsoft Silvia Gabrielli (Digital Transformation Advisor – Microsoft):

    additional bibliography:
    https://dblp.org/pid/57/3599.html
     
  8. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Interesting. Dumping many of the guys with 'gasoline in their veins' for numbers guys. All in the name of 'progress' there...
     
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  9. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Did you expect something different? That was very clear with the nomination of Vigna.

    Marcel Massini
     
  10. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    Indeed, that's why I have one in my garage.
     
  11. paulchua

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    #112 paulchua, Jan 10, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
    I mean, I guess it could be argued this is a deep fake synthetic media. It's plausible, although I have not seen any evidence of anyone claiming the video below is fraudulent. I'm open-minded though, if you have any HARD *evidence*, I'm the type of person that is ALWAYS willing to change my mind in light of new evidence.

    Don't take offense to the following, not personal; I just place credibility on Piero above you, and others here. I know some folks here would rather believe themselves over Enzo Ferrari's own son. Let's just say I'm not that arogant.

    "I think he (Enzo) would be very happy with Ferrari. He would been happy with the technological developments as well. He (Enzo) would have been fascinated with angle of producing hybrid or electric vehicles. He would have been the first to do it. He would have been the first to look to the future."

    -Piero Ferrari

    The most important thing to notice here is the video was created before all these current changes, it was made years before hybrids/electric cars were more common. So it can't be Pierro trying to justify current changes.
    (start at 5:00 if you want to skip to Piero's comments)

    Hey if you want to disagree with what Enzo's own son said his father would have wanted., that's certainly you're prerogative.

    Please do not get mad if I agree with Enzo's family, particularly his own son. After all, I love Enzo and would love to carry on his philosophy. I get many don't. Hence, my comment on how Enzo regarded many of his customers.

    :)
     
  12. 1HSV1

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  13. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    I have a feeling it may have been ICE or nothing guys, though just pure speculation. I’ve found in my own life compromise and accepting things I have no power to change have been assets rather then demerits.
     
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  14. George Vosburgh

    George Vosburgh F1 Rookie
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    I don't think Enzo would be too happy with the way the F1 team is performing, or lack there of.
     
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  15. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    God Yes! 1,000 times over! Here's to 2022 - Forza Ferrari!
     
  16. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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    Oh, I see, there is no such quote. Thank you.

    Forget the 'future', here is the reality:

    https://tinyurl.com/yckpy5v7
    1987: Ferrari F1/87
    Power: 880 bhp
    Weight: 540 kg / 1,191 lb
    Top Speed: 330 km/h (205 mph)

    https://www.fiaformulae.com/en/discover/cars-and-technology
    2021: Formula E 'gen 2'
    Power: 250kW, equivalent to 335bhp
    Weight including driver: 903kg (battery 385kg)
    Top Speed: 280km/h (174mph)

    - - -
    Even with 34 years of 'advancement', Formula E is completely pathetic compared to a 1987 Ferrari F1 car !

    So, I conjecture Enzo Ferrari would have no desire for that.

    - - - -
    Recent Formula 1 specs are a little more difficult to glean, but, in general, F1 is all about "conforming to the rules" and 'hybrid' brings WEIGHT, the enemy of racing...but, comply they must...

    Ferrari SF21:
    https://www.ferrari.com/en-EN/formula1/sf21-reveal
    WEIGHT INCLUDING WATER, OIL AND DRIVER: 752 KG

    MB_AMG F1:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes_AMG_F1_W09_EQ_Power+
    Weight: 733kg
    Power: Up to 1000hp (750Kw)

    HONDA top speed: 397.36km/h (246.9mph)
    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-fast-is-an-f1-car-top-speeds-of-f1-indycar-motogp-and-more-4980734/4980734/

    - - - - -
    So, the 1987 Ferrari F1 specs above probably does not include driver weight, let's presume the driver adds 80kg (probably less), that would put the 1987 'all in weight' at 620kg, so 'modern' F1 cars are +100kg, much lighter body composites, battery and electric motor, better transmission, and, apparently a much speedier top speed. No doubt Ferrari would conform to the rules and find a way to win, but, without a doubt, would stay completely away from Formula E (all electric) as it is not a winning formula (weight+low power+etc).
     
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  17. wrxmike

    wrxmike Moderator
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    Video title is for the 30th Anniversary of the "Centro Dino Ferrari", which was in 2014.
     
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  18. JTSE30

    JTSE30 F1 Rookie

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  19. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    PERFECTO!

    In other words - exactly when this thread started. It's awesome to see where the automotive world's mindset (more importantly People) was, even just a short 8 years ago.

    I always tell folks I love the Internet is forever.

    Looking at some (most?) of the comments there saying the whole hybrid/electric thing is a fad, is very funny.
     
  20. paulchua

    paulchua Cat Herder
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    I never said anything about F1 vs Formula E.

    But...since you bring it up.

    Formula 1 has been around for nearly 75 years. Formula E is just at just starting it's 7th season. You're not going to have parity immediately.

    You do know Formula 1 is hybrid? (for 10 years now)

    Folks will say this is due to P&R nonsense - okay, then I ask:

    Do you know what kind of car currently holds the fastest lap record at Nurburgring?
    (The goal? get the fastest lap using *any* technology available)

    :)
     
  21. paulchua

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    #122 paulchua, Jan 11, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
    Thanks again @wrxmike for pointing out the vintage of this video.

    You know I was curious, what 100% electric cars were available in all of the USA back in 2013?

    So I looked it up just to remind myself what the landscape was at the time.

    Here they are.

    1) Tesla Model S

    That's it

    :)

    The i3, Spark, and Leaf came out the next year.
     
  22. day355

    day355 Formula 3

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    I think it would be wise to stop making Enzo speak to give supposed legitimacy to the future... production.
    It s another mark, it s a fact.
    This will suit some, a minority I hope.
     
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  23. paulchua

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    #125 paulchua, Jan 11, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
    I was surprised by the dearth of fully electric cars, so I was like was this quick? Yeah. it's crazy.

    So I turned my attention to what Hybrid cars were available way back in 2014?

    I counted about 25 cars.

    2022? 114 cars

    In other words, just shooting from the hip - I'm arguing that in 8 short years, you're now about five times more likely to see a hybrid car on the road, vs when Piero recorded this.

    :)

    All I'm saying is I already know what the landscape will look like at 2030 (baring some black swan event) - It just boggles my mind when folks look at me like I"m talking nonsense.

    Again, notice I make no mention of P&R. There's a forum for that if that's in your rebuttal.
     

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