Let us pray for all the people on all of the F1 teams... | Page 3 | FerrariChat

Let us pray for all the people on all of the F1 teams...

Discussion in 'F1' started by Tifoso1, Jun 3, 2005.

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  1. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
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    Pete
    I replied to this in my first post to this thread. EDIT: Hmmm, I thought I did, must have deleted my reply ...

    KR flat spotted his tyre in the last stint of the race trying to lap JV. He would have thus NOT had any more pitstops to make.

    The vibration thus only started from this point on ... and would have been exactly the same with brand new tyres. Yes Anthony you can flat spot brand new tyres too.

    Your point is invalid, sorry.


    As pistole pointed out, you do not want a discussion about this, you want to wank on about how you do not like the single set of tyre rule. I am sick and tired of people on this site not having the wide shoulders to accept the rule and get on with life. It is no more dangerous, the only danger is caused by having 2 tyre manufacturers and thus over competitiveness.

    Yes you have your opinion, but we have proven in this case that it is wrong ... and just like me we have to accept when we are wrong sometimes to move forward in life.

    Have a nice day ... I can see my returning to this 'chat' site was a waste of time.
    Pete
     
  2. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Anthony C.
    Are you sure that KR's tyre was not in trouble before lapping JV? I seem to recall seeing the tyres with bad blisters (dark lines) way before that as in before the 2nd pit stop and actual blisters during his 2nd pit stop. It is true that brand new tyres can flat-spotted too, in fact, brand new tyres can blow under the right condition just as well, but just for a minute, consider the possibilities of flat-spotting being amplified with the blisters as the tyre begin to fail and thus causing excessive vibration, afterall, FA's tyres were down to the cords at Monaco at the end as well. Again, I feel that with new tyres, the car may become ill-handling, but may not have caused the suspension to fail as in KR's case.

    Like you, I am sick of something too. I am sick and tired of people saying that I or others are against this tyre rule only because Ferrari is not winning. This assumption is really getting old.

    And finally, please take note that Pete has spoken and has now left the building. Let that be a lesson to the rest of you all for wasting Pete's precious time on this 'chat'. He will now re-treat back up to his cloud among the other immortals. I will miss you, don't forget to write and please, don't be a stranger. :)
     
  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    Er, McLaren and KR stated that it was caused by the lapping issue.
    I appologise for that comment and the tone it was made in ... but the rules are here and they are NOT anymore dangerous than previous years.

    We have discussed this over and over again and dispelled the myth that a single tyre per race distance is anymore dangerous. I have pointed out my views (yes they are just my views) on what may influence safety regarding tyres and the length of use distance is not one of them. Remember Michelin and Bridgestone design them for the intended mileage.

    In the previous posts I have tried to explain the racing driver mindset and how that dispells many of your views. Yes I have not been a professional driver but I have had to make the try and finish or retire on safety grounds ... it is an extremely difficult decision to make.

    Even at club level you have spent an absolute fortune and many, many hours of personal time and now you are in a good position in a race ... and then you feel play in the suspension or a new noise ... are you going to stop?

    Well I can tell you that the passionate race driver in most competitors keep their fingers crossed for as long as they can ... because the reason they invested all their personal money + sponsors and their time is for that result.

    Now elevate that to KR's position. He is fighting for the ultimate prize in motorsport, the F1 WC, and you expect him to come in and change a tyre because of a vibration when he is only 20 or so laps away from a massive 10 points?

    No way!, and the same would go for the whole team. KR would happily risk the remote chance (remember these cars are pretty safe nowadays) of injury on that 10 points.

    In hindsight KR made the wrong decision ... heck if he had pitted he probably would have got some points, instead he got none. But competitors in any sport do not think like that, they would not be in the game if they settled for second best (well maybe except for RB ;)).

    And finally a race car, especially something designed as close to the limit as a F1 car, does not finish a race without many components needing attention (ie. maintenance). Many of the suspension joints will have developed play, engine will be getting tired and loosing power, gearbox will also be tired and probably costing power, etc. It is not just the tyres. That is why they replace just about everything except the tub between events ... heck even at my humble level, I used to replace rose joints every so many meetings, etc.

    Thus I cannot agree with you regarding the current tyre rules making any difference to this situation.

    I do 100% agree, though, that the statement by the FIA is strange and deluded, again for all the above reasons you can not expect a team to make whimpy decisions and pull in a car for possibly unnecessary maintenance ... think about all the $$$'s invested and years, etc. Not going to happen.

    Thus it is totally up to the FIA to make the regulations right so that a level of safety is maintained. If they are worried about the tyres then again get rid of the second tyre supplier and immediately the safety would improve as the resulting tyre would be very conservative ... ie. nobody to beat, OR specify a minimum weight (that is too heavy) per tyre.

    The above points I have made should be implemented EVEN if they allowed tyre changes every 2 laps ... again cause then the tyre manufacturers will design tyres that only last say 3 laps. Every little bit counts when you are looking at winning.


    I will take a break from FerrariChat and especially the racing forum, 'cause I have become jaded ... and thus do not have anything to contribute the current discussions (except this one, but I have made my point ...)

    Regards
    Pete
     
  4. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 11, 2003
    13,163
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    Anthony T
    Pete,

    Don't go anywhere it is always excellent to read your posts. I have said the smoking crack part to others, I realize it was in jest. Unfortuantely Anthony C. took it the wrong way, but I am sure he realizes you were joking around.

    Not everyone has to agree on everything and we all have our opinions, but don't LEAVE.

    Tony
     
  5. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 3, 2002
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    Andreas
    If Webber gets on the Canadian podium Pete will be back in a heart beat.
    :)
     
  6. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
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    Pete
    Thus you could bring back tyre changes but if you have a chance for a good result and the car/tyre is failing and no more scheduled stops ... no real racer is going to pit.

    Thus the FIA need to specify the tyre regulations to allow for a larger safety factor ... or something?, and not waste all of our time by asking teams to think safety (even more) first and sacrifice results.

    Pete
    ps: Just posted this to prove that F1 drivers do think about results over the risks ...
     
  7. MalcQV

    MalcQV F1 Rookie

    Oct 11, 2004
    3,292
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    Malc Holden
    I think we are sort of missing the points raised here.. ships in the night..

    Anthony is saying that "if" the one tyre/race rule was not in operation in this instance at Nürburgring KR would not of been in this situation.. period.

    However I believe Pete has made a clear statement in that at this level of competition there is no way KR was going to stop whatever rules are in place. I feel really sorry for KR and Mclaren as they should of won!!! but then I am biased and hate Renault ;)

    I think we can safely say you are both right.
     
  8. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Anthony C.
    Just FYI, the complete piece from what Pete was referring to on Webber's comment from http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html

    Mark Webber warned in Montreal that the series could face a repeat of Kimi Raikkonen's European Grand Prix crash because the sport's bosses will not listen to drivers' advice.

    Raikkonen crashed out of the European Grand Prix after a flat-spotted Michelin, which he and his McLaren team chose not to replace, caused his suspension to break on the final lap of the last race in Germany. Webber believes new rules that force teams to use one set of tyres per race are to blame, not a team gambling on a race victory in race in which he Webber has already eliminated himself in.

    "I think unfortunately it will not be the last one we see, we will see another moment where someone has a problem," said Webber who crashed out of the race at the first turn after missing his braking point. "I don't like to talk about what could happen, but every driver in the pitlane would say it is more risky. That is absolutely clear, and I think the tyre regulation is a risky game."

    "Kimi's crash was a very public failure he was leading the Grand Prix, one lap to go, and then bang, you know, people love that sort of stuff, but at the end of the day there is still a human strapped into the car."

    Raikkonen, who was leading at the time, could have pitted for a new tyre on safety grounds but would have suffered a penalty and the team chose to gamble and keep him out as the race came to a close. The gamble failed as he headed into the first corner when the suspension collapsed and Webber, who is a member of the Grand Prix Drivers' Association, is concerned that the next failure could be more serious.

    He confirmed that the drivers will discuss the regulation in a meeting during this weekend's Canadian Grand Prix but admitted their opinions are unlikely to be acted upon by the sport's governing body the FIA.

    "The drivers' opinions are not very important, because we never get listened to," said Webber. "We will definitely be talking about it this weekend, but when it comes to big changes like regulations... I personally think running a race on one set of tyre in some cases will be more dangerous for the driver. We have an option to change tyres but, like Kimi, when you are leading the race of course you are not going to stop. Change is good, but people think the changes have been quite good because the racing has been better, and I am not sitting here drilling the FIA, but it is a tough rule for the drivers."

    "When the helmets are on we are not going to come in if we have tyre problems, we have to finish the race with what we have. The team will say, look, we are in big, big trouble here, but do your best to stay out there."

    E.A.
    Source AFP
     
  9. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Anthony C.
    Also FYI from F1.racing-live.com

    Michael Schumacher only arrived at the track in the afternoon on Thursday and his first job was to sit down amongst the plants and bushes that decorate the Ferrari paddock area and talk to the press.

    It was a brief meeting and the first question was about concerns raised after Kimi Raikkonen’s accident a fortnight ago at the Nurburgring, after his flat-spotted front tyre caused his suspension to break.

    “You cannot just say this accident was due to the new rule forbidding tyre changing during a race,” began the reigning world champion. “If you look at the situation last year, when tyre changes were allowed, we saw some tyre failures even then."

    "It is down to the tyre manufacturers to now produce tyres that last the whole distance, but in the case of Kimi it was actually caused by driver error, as flat-spotted the tyre. You cannot insure against ever making mistakes. It was his decision to stay out on track which is fair enough, as it is very difficult decision to make in a situation like that.”

    As for this weekend in Montreal, Schumacher agreed with a questioner who reminded him of his excellent record in the Canadian GP. “Yes, that’s true,” said the German, “and we would like to maintain that this weekend. We have some improvements on the car, but the question is always the same – will it be enough. Anyway, we will keep fighting.”

    The Ferrari man went on to maintain that, apart from the obvious disappointment, he was able to deal with this period of races without a win. “In the past, we went many years without winning and I dealt with it then and it is not a problem now. We are facing a different challenge at the moment and although the results have not been so good, our race pace is competitive, so we just have to keep on working to get it right in the other areas.”

    Regarding his chances of maintaining his championship title, Schumacher took the same view as he always has done in these situations. “I just think it is not yet over mathematically and so that’s the way I look at it.”

    Press Release
    Ferrari
     
  10. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Interesting Anthony ... 2 actual F1 drivers and slightly different views.

    Thus I guess this comes down to which window of life (er, racing) you look through ... :)

    Pete
    ps: And yes I should have posted the Webber's complete post :eek:
     
  11. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Anthony C.
    Even know Ferrari finished 1-2 this weekend, my stand on the tyre rule is still the same, I think it is a bad idea and needs to be changed.

    However, I do give Michellin and Michellin-shod teams credit for admitting and recognizing the potential danger with their tyres. However, I do think it is wrong for them to:

    1) "Demand" the track configuration to be changed, the Bridgestone teams did nothing wrong and should not be "punished" because Michellin screwed up. I strong doubt that if the situation were reversed, the Michellin-shod teams will be so kind to allow the track changes to accomandate the Bridgestone teams.

    2) To ask FIA to make an exception and allow a new tyre compound to be used other than the two they brought to the States. Rules are rules, you can try to change them, but as long as it is still in the rule books, they are still RULES that must be followed by all teams !! They can pit every 10 laps or 2 laps or whatever is safe for their cars, but face and admit to your own mistakes, send your team out and salvage whatever points your team can salvage. Note to all the team priniciples, this is F1, there are no "do-over" allowed in F1.

    3) Ask FIA to make it a non-point paying race. Why should the Bridgestone teams be punished for Michellin's screw up??!! Should Minardi demand that every single race be a non-point paying race because their cars are simply not fast down the straight, handles poorly around the corners, coming in and leaving the pits or the car/team just plain suck.

    The issue of Sportsmanship was also raised in another thread, regarding how Ferrari only cares about winning etc. Why shouldn't they? Does McLaren, Williams or any other team out on the grid not care? Does any driver out there not care if they win or not? If they don't, they should be in F1 to begin with. Winning is what pays the bills, the only people that does not care about winning are the weekend, amature drivers. Ferrari didn't force Michellin to come into F1, Ferrari did not force the 7 F1 teams to sign with Michellin and Ferrari certainly did not make Michellin bring the wrong tyres to the race. Why should they or any other two Bridgestone teams be punished for someone else's mistakes?? Did you see how excited Montiego looked after the race? yes, it was a hallow race, and yes it was more of a circus act than a race but if you think that being on the podium means nothing to him, then just re-read what was said in the post-race conferences. Fact is, it was not the Bridgestone teams' job to enforce the rules, nor is it their jobs to make sure that the Michellin teams are happy.

    This is the SIXTH USGP at Indy, turn 3 or turn 13 has always been there, it didn't just happen overnight. Michellin and their teams has been doing enough testings to know how and what to expect under any certain type of condition, they all took a risk which resulted in bad choice of tyres for the race, DEAL WITH IT!!! There is no excuse for any of the top teams to say or claim that they didn't know as they are the ones that traded durability for performace, and this time, they got burned. They can protest any rule in any way they want to FIA, but to act like a 5 year old and pull out of the race the way they did, that IS bad sportsmanship.
     
  12. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    I'm pretty sure we will only have a single tyre supplier next year ... thus problem (IMO) goes away.

    Whoever is left will be able to make a very, very safe tyre that could do 3 races end on end ... and they will not have to worry about the other tyre being faster.

    IMO this solves many of F1's current problems, ie:
    - Cost ... no more tyre testing, well no where near as much.
    - The lap times will slow.
    - Safety is improved.
    - Optionally could allow tyre changes if they wanted too, but tyre so hard as standard compound that no real performance advantage.

    Pete
     
  13. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Andreas
    Fully agree and wonder whether Bernie deliberately didn't fix the USGP's problem by not stepping in hoping this will kill off Michelin for next year.
     

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