Thank you for your feedback @gzachary . Definitely helps put things in perspective. And that’s the thing, I don’t think you should have to look for something that’s makes you go I have to have this car. It should smack you in the face and the be immediate that it’s something special and that you want it more than anything else. That’s how I felt when I first drove the 458. It’s weird because even though it’s a monster of an engine I felt it was also fairly docile. Had it in race mode and never felt intimidated or that it was twitchy. Dealer thinks that I would need to turn of some of the electronics to find what I’m looking for. Don’t necessarily want to kill myself though. Never thought I would say this but are cars just getting to powerful now that we need all this electronic trickery to be able to drive them but then it also dulls down the experience? Without sounding silly I almost think it’s too comfortable for what I’m after. I want every drive to be an event and while I don’t want the car to be uncomfortable I don’t want the comfort to take away from the experience. Maybe I should go drive the huracan performante. I drove the standard huracan a few years back and it didn’t do much for me but the HP is supposed to be a big improvement. Based on prices here is Australia I could keep the 458 and add a HP for the almost the same $$ as getting into the 812. Plenty of thinking to do. But until the answer is glaringly obvious to me then there’s no rush to do anything.
I get the v8 vs v12 thing however the scale of the cars is completely different... I almost traded up and the 812 is awesome but it is not the sports car the 458 is .... it's a huge elephant.... a nimble one but anyone who likens them is not being honest or they just don't "know" and are guessing... I have extensive experience in both.
Part of what you are feeling is the effortless speed of the 812. It doesn't make a big deal about it unless you are really putting the boots to it. I mean you said you didn't go past 7k RPM right? Gotta get those LED's into the blue my man. Also please tell me you used race mode! It turns the car into an animal.
My biz partner got a Huracan Perf coupe and I was mesmerized by the sound. So I got the spider. Not a Lambo Guy, but what a car. I’ve loved all the 458’s and likely will get one again some day, but this HP is on another level. Find the 488 spider boring. Same for Mclaren. I have not driven the v12 Ferraris yet and need to. I’m getting the Pista. It it’s a means to a 812 spider. Hopefully that’s an even better HP!
It’s also important to understand that the 6.5l V12 has much higher rotating mass than a 4.5l V8 so the ‘urgency’ you get from a 458 has something to do with that. Any cylinder combination that is a multiple of 3 is inherently smoother than one that is a multiple of 2. So the beauty of a V12 is not so much its urgency but its power, smoothness, relentless torque and sound. It takes a while to appreciate but once you’re there there is no engine like it. It is old school thinking because a V12 cannot easily be light and it heavily influences any car that possesses one - it is less likely to be a throw-around experience like the 458, but its appeal lies in going quickly very differently. It makes perfect sense for Ferrari to offer something very different to its V8 line with the V12s to give a reason to trade up or simply have both. But they don’t engineer this per se, it is the nature of the layout and engine that delivers the difference. You are now heavily conditioned by the 458, it will take a while to see where the laugh-out-loud pleasure in the 812 lies. If you expect it to be a more powerful and expensive 458, I don’t believe you will get there. The analogy about an elephant above I’m personally not sure is right. I have a Lusso and that is a large, heavy car, but it is no elephant. The 812 (which I have yet to drive but have on order) will be much more lively and feral than the Lusso - the F12 was certainly like that and all reporters say the 812 is a step on from the F12. If you want animals, liken the V8 to a leopard and the V12 to a Tiger. Bigger, heavier, more powerful, more ‘majestic’, not as light on its feet. I don’t think you are feeling electronics holding the car back but one way to confirm that is by using CT off on the next test drive. This is an excellent mode that allows you to break traction with no intervention but retains side-slip-control and stability control just in case you do something very stupid (and we’ve all been there...) My 812 is due to arrive in July. If I could have only one car it would probably be a mid-engined car because I love the exotic-ness of that layout and especially the way the weight transfers during cornering. But if I could only have two cars, one would definitely be a V12 because there is no engine like it. With a Ferrari badge on its rocker cover it is probably the best engine that you can buy anywhere. In the end petrol-head motoring life is about different experiences. You can get that with one car by changing the locations you use it, or by different cars. I don’t know what an 812 will cost in depreciation but it will add a lot to you in terms of exploring a new part of the motoring world and its history. If you are worried you might keep it for a year and then want to trade back, just lessen your spec. Personally I don’t really think too much to carbon fibre on a heavier car (I have almost zero on my TM spec’d car) so you could go easier there if you’re worried you might not take to the experience as strongly as you did with the 458. All the best and I hope you get to the right decision.
Thank you everyone for your input. It’s been very helpful. I think maybe what I was looking at the whole thing wrong. The 812 is a brilliant car. A different brilliance than the 458. Both have different positives and if I could have both then that would be the ultimate combination. Since I can’t I might drive a performante and if that delivers the X factor then I could hold onto the 458 and add a HP to satisfy my want of something new.
I for one, find the V12 much more urgent than the V8. The killer blow though is all in the top end, it seems like that the rev band never ends!!!
Have you driven a Speciale? Based on what you are saying, it seems like you may have more fun in a Speciale than an 812... Suggest you find one and test drive it, and report back.
Add me to the list considering the 812. Have owned a 458 and now own a 488 Spider. I love the 488 and the F8 is not different enough to make the jump so I am looking at the 812 ( would prefer the 812 Spider but suspect it may take forever to get one). From reading this thread it seems the instantaneous torque of the 812 is less than the 458. The 488 blows away the 458 so now this is a concern. Do most 812 owners downshift to generate the desired thrust when desired or is the lack of torque not an issue? On a DD issue, is parking an issue with the extended front of the car? Thanks in advance for your help.
I like the HPs more than my Speciale. But the Italia is brilliant. HPs is on another level for sound, speed, handling, usability, style vs the 488 and most 458 variants. If only the 458 spider wasn’t so wobbly it would have been #1.
They are a completely different look and driving experience from one another so I keep both. If I could only keep one, F12 100% over the 458.
Honestly I don't think he was complaining about a lack of torque. He was complaining the engine wasn't making enough of a racket when doing it's think. My V8 Corvette is a lot louder than my 812. My V8 Corvette also seems more "urgent" because the 812 just does it's thing with no fuss. Effortless speed.
Some really good points being made. The 812 is really fast and its speed is effortless. And I am probably looking for more of an event like performance than effortless. Again I think because of the price point and what we pay for cars here in Australia I was expecting it to be all of those things. I don't want to have to compromise when I am spending that much $$$. I am going to take a HP for a run on Thursday and hopefully that should provide the entertainment I am looking for at almost half the price. That way I can get a new toy and still keep my beloved 458. @PA Wolfpacker I didn't really do any parking with the car but with regards to the front end, I noticed how far out it hangs for the first 5 minutes of driving. But after a quick drive you no longer notice it and it feels much smaller than it is.
Well, this seems to be the problem. The last couple of thousands RPM is where all the magic happens and the V12 goes ballistic. You were probably leaving some 150 CV on the table.
This I would agree with. OTOH, the last couple thousands of RPM comes and goes very fast. It”s almost over before it even started...
This is precisely why I have an HP to go along with my F12 (soon to be 812 which should arrive around June 1). Radically different weapons. Both are way too fast, but in many respects, their magic is the opposite from each other. The HP is loud, angry, grippy, flamboyant, loud, tight fitting, low slung, hard to see out of, moves surgically through the twisties, fun in short bursts of road, and, did I mention, loud? Meanwhile, the 812 (I had extended track time at Corsa Pilota last summer) is much like mh F12 low-key visually, almost like a sleeper car, but it can go from Mr. Hyde to Dr. Jekyll in a nanosecond. For me, that dichotomy speaks directly to its magic: on one hand, it’s comfortable with good visibility, it’s practical with the large rear boot, it’s easy to drive in traffic and can easily go unnoticed, but on the other hand, it has a significant white knuckle component that can easily bite you in the butt. If I can be honest, it can take me right up to edge if being scared. It also requires more runway because to enjoy the gloriously high rev range, you must be going quite fast. I absolutely love both cars and for me, they are “forever cars”, ones that I will always have in my collection.
Put it this way, I wouldn't spend almost a million bucks on a car unless you are super happy with it. Although I think it's pretty hard to get an 812 at all there isn't it? So if you don't like it you can probably sell it fairly easily I would guess.
I have a 458 Spider and can't imagine an engine sounding better at 9000 rpm. I also have an 812 on order so eventually I will able to compare. My biggest worry is I really like the open top experience the 458 provides. With the 812, I feel like I will be riding around with the windows up all the time. I'll see when I get it. I was really excited to order it and wait for it but the excitement is waning. I think it's because I really love my 458. I do plan on keeping both so I'll have the best of both worlds. Sounds like you are keeping the 458 for now.....
There is a significant wait time to get one yes. But not sure how easy it is to move one. A few on the market now that have been sitting for a while. Anything can be moved for the right price. But be prepared to take a hit on it. I would imagine on a well specked one if you decide to move it within 12 months you will walk away at least $100k lighter in the wallet.
Yes I do like that quote. Problem is I was looking to be a pro athlete who also owns the team. Kind of like Michael Jordan in his prime while playing and owning the team he played for. Is that to much to ask for?
Not too much to ask for if you're driving a Speciale. Seriously, you should at least test drive one, as I think it may satisfy more of your criteria than the 812 would, based on what you've written....
