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Low mileage is a relative term

Discussion in 'Ferrari Discussion (not model specific)' started by TheMayor, Oct 6, 2009.

  1. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    #1 TheMayor, Oct 6, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
    So, what constitutes low mileage?

    For an F car, that's about 2 or 3K a year or less I imagine. But, for your average Toyota, it's probably 10 or 12K.

    Over five years, the Ferrari is considered low mileage at 10K while the Toyota is considered low mileage at 60. Does that make sense? They are both cars for heavens' sake.

    Here's my point. If everyone drove their F cars MORE, there would be

    1) happier owners experiencing more of their cars and

    2) higher resale values for everyone and

    3) the elimination of this crazy notion that a car with 5K miles is somehow better than one with 15 or 20K, so you better sell it before it hit's the "high mileage" mark.


    So, what's my point? We need to encourage more owners to drive their cars for the benefit of the marque. If the trend continues, people will just be eventually afraid to turn the key. Or, worse yet, someone will actually start to say their car is worth more because it has fewer HOURS of use. We will all be forced to keep a "log" of the time the motor runs to justify how good a used car it is.

    I have no idea where this notion that Ferrari's are so special, you can't drive them for fear of losing "value". Mileage is a relative term and so many are sucked up into the "fear of driving because I will lose value" idea that it creates a self fullfilling prophecy.

    We ourselves are just a guilty. When someone finds a car and it has 20 to 50K on the clock, we warn them that it's high mileage and a potential nightmare... that they should look for a better low mileage car. It's our OWN DARN FAULT because we reinforce this notion ourselves to potential new owners, scaring them half to death.

    Why? Why is a well maintaned car with higher mileage any worse than a lower one that sat on it's tires in garage for most of it's life? Is this really good advice for ALL owners? Sorry, I don't think so... Father time still takes it's toll on fuel, oils, oxidation, gaskets, electrical components, leather, steel, plastic, and paint if it's sitting still or running around town.

    Mileage is only one of the keys to a fine machine. Because we ourselves don't drive our cars enough, we just add fuel to this idea. If the passionate owners can't even justify driving their cars more than 3K a year, how can we expect others to break this disasterous trend. Who started it in the first place????

    End of rant..
     
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  3. mwr4440

    mwr4440 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    As long as people buy, not for the love of the marqee, but as a perceived "investment," as the main motivational factor to part with the money, your wish will never materialize.


    And from the threads and posts here, that perceived "investment" attitude seems to be quite strong among many(most?) members. There seems to be a lot of posts about loss or gain of value that I honestly and respectfully do not understand. Poor upbringing on my part perhaps.


    No judgement passed upon any member, just an observation.



    And since it is intuitively obvious that a car with 20K miles on the clock is worth less than a car with only 7K miles on the clock, the "Value Myth" will always be with us.


    "Low Milage" will ALWAYS be seen as important even when it RARELY (yes, there are a few instances where it REALLY CAN BE), rarely ever is.
     
  4. JoeZaff

    JoeZaff F1 Veteran
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    While I agree with you conceptually, the practical reality is that, as you pour on the miles cosmetic bits begin to wear out and age or break. IE, interior trim pieces, fog lights, leather, vinyl, paint, etc. Ferrari then compounds the problem by making the vast majority of these pieces unavailable after about ten years. So, if you were a kid dreaming of growing up one day and having, say a 328 or Testarossa, and were in the market today, you would probably want the car that looks pristine (just as you imagined it). Even though you may not care about the mileage per se, cosmetically, low mileage cars are USUALLY, in excellent condition, while most high mileage cars will have some "patina", which you wont be able to remedy at anything less than stupid money. A good friend of mine is a Ferrari broker (and shall remain nameless), he once told me, buy the car with the best interior you can, or you will forever be reminded of the compromise.

    I am driving my car about 3K a year (which is as much as I have time for). In doing so, I am killing the resale value. Its OK though, this one's a keeper, and I thank the previous owner for those 22 years of spending stupid money on maintenance while barely driving her!

    I get where you are coming from, and I wish it were so...but as long as Ferrari's are dream cars first, weekend toys 2nd, and actual motor vehicles a distant third, the prettiest ones will always be on top...and from a mental standpoint that usually equates to no miles.

    I know that whenever somebody sees my car the first thing they comment on is the odometer (bought with 15K on clock)...oh well, not for long :)
     
  5. UroTrash

    UroTrash Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Well, depends on your reference point.

    All the cars I'm interested in would carry the undesirable title "garage queen" (i.e. miles too low) with 20K miles!
     
  6. GrayTA

    GrayTA F1 World Champ
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    I find this to be an interesting topic as well.

    My 308 GTS QV is from 1985 and currently has 65k miles. So, according to my calculations my car has put on about 2700 miles per year roughly. Yet, it is considered a "high" mileage car and was when I got it.

    I personally felt that it ensured that the car ran and that it would not have some of the issues that other garage queens would have.

    So, does less than 3k per year really make my car high mileage? Or is it right on par with where it "should" be?


    PDG
     
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  8. SrfCity

    SrfCity F1 Veteran

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    An underlying reason for F ownership is so you can say you own one or just satisfaction of ownership whether you drive it or not. That, plus the low mileage/resale value belief means they'll always be low mileage cars around that people will look to buy. It's an uphill battle thinking that will change, here in the US anyway.
     
  9. AceMaster

    AceMaster Three Time F1 World Champ

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    If I could drive mine daily, and put the mileage on like a do with my daily driver, then I would. I simply don't have the time. I have 3 children, all under the age of 7, and my priority is to spend as much time with them as possible and doing family things with them as opposed to leaving them at home while I go out and enjoy my Ferrari. I already knew that before I bought my Ferrari, and although I could be enjoying my Ferrari on a sunny summer day, I get more enjoyment out of taking the family to the beach or family picnic. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE driving and enjoying my Ferrari, but how could I get total satisfaction out of driving it when my wife and kids are couped up at home? That would be selfish on my part.

    Enjoy and appreciate your Ferraris, don't worry about the mileage whether high or low, there are more important things to worry about.

    cheers
     
  10. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

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    I think people tended to drive them more until the late 80's when values soared. I've looked over records of 308's and 328's and it was not unusual for the original owner to drive it a lot until the value began to really rise. Once buyers became flippers instead of drivers, the die was cast and continues to this day.

    Oddly enough, since my 430 took a big hit in value a year ago, I've been motivated to drive it more. Trying to amortize my depreciation over more miles I guess. But after 4 years and now deciding I will not be getting a 458, I've decided to keep it long term so I'm not going to make a big effort to drive it a lot but certainly not worry about the mileage either. It's already high at 16K.

    Dave
     
  11. Bullfighter

    Bullfighter Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Enough with the honesty. This is another mileage thread. :mad:
     
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  13. Spider-Man

    Spider-Man Karting

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    I feel sorry for those owners.
     
  14. DonJuan348

    DonJuan348 F1 Rookie
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    #11 DonJuan348, Oct 6, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2009
    yep, another mileage thread. People frenquently say buy a car with hi or higher miles but those are the ones thay take the longest to sell. So everyone who has said that then shyed away from these cars are talking out both sides of their neck.

    I bought the marquee to drive it . This past weekend I pit 490miles on it in 28 hours after she left the garage... Between last weekend in Baltimore @ Viva Italia and this past weekend @ Cape May, Atlantic City then CT festa di ferrari that total about 900 miles. 7k miles in 6 months of ownership.

    who cares the value at sell. Its the price I paid to enjoy the car and meet plenty of new people who share the passion called Ferrari !
     
  15. Tony K

    Tony K Formula 3

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    To answer the question raised in the title of the thread, the reason that a Toyota (...or Porsche) with 60k miles is "low" and the Ferrari with 60k miles is "high" is because Ferraris are pieces of s--t. If they could be driven 60k miles and still be in the condition that other cars are in without costing a few times the value of an everyday car, then people would drive them as much at Toyotas (...and Porsches). ;) :D


    Of course collectors want low mileage cars. Their goal and ultimate dream is the impossible: To stop time. To go back in time. To find something that has escaped time. Well, time marches on. But to someone who wants to collect and show cars, that which can not be regained once lost is the ultimate prize and desire. Low mileage cars will, therefore, always be worth more.


    I would caution against confusing the collector with the person who is afraid to drive his cars. There are plenty of people who buy Ferraris who are terrified something expensive is going to break if the drive it, so it sits in the garage. They can't justify the cost of timing belts when the belts aren't broken (yet), but they know the consequences so it sits in the garage. Their car is nowhere near the condition of what a serious collector would ever be interested in, yet they are afraid of putting miles on it for fear of devaluation . . . or getting a stone chip (that they don't want to pay to have touched up). I really, really really, don't understand why these people are so unwilling to lose -- no, spend -- any money on a car they bought for "pleasure," while they are perfectly willing to waste away thousands on leasing or buying and taking a depreciation hit, plus maintenance, on their every day driver. Go figure . . .
     
  16. Tony K

    Tony K Formula 3

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    By the way, with the whole mileage thing, there comes a point where condition trumps mileage. If you are looking at two 30-year old exotic cars and one has (supposedly) low-ish miles (say 30k) but is neglected -- dry leather, average original paint, dry cracking suspension bushings, original shocks, no documented valve clearances, overdue for timing belt, brake fluid and coolant potentially 15 years old, some controls do not work --- basically your average eBay 308 -- . . . and one that has high mileage (say 65k) but has had in the past ten years the suspension completely rebuilt, an expert refinish in the original color, documented fluid changes and valve clearances on schedule, belts, leather seats redone, everything works, etc. . . . . assuming all other things equal, which is the more valuable car? When you see years of attention and money lavished on a classic like that, I think one would be crazy to not prefer the one that has been taken care of!
     
  17. TheMayor

    TheMayor Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Well, I'm sorry but I think it's much more than that. It's about how the most enthusiastic owners... the people on this board... tell FUTURE owners that high mileage cars should be shunned, thus continuing this idea that high mileage cars are unworthy or undesirable when, in fact, that may not be true.

    It's not that people should or should not drive their cars more. It's about the ATTITUDE about what is and is not considered high mileage and the message we send out that amplifies the situation making it worse.

    We are part of that self fullfilling prophecy.
     
  18. ZiFF

    ZiFF Formula Junior

    Mar 30, 2009
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    Why is a 60K mile toyota or porsche "low miles," but a Ferrari has to have 15K miles to be "low miles?"

    A toyota or porsche can go 200,000 miles without blowing up.

    So, 4 toyota or porsche miles = 1 ferrari mile.

    So, 15,000 mile ferrari = a 60,000 mile toyota or porsche.

    There you have it!
     
  19. Tony K

    Tony K Formula 3

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    To play devil's advocate for a moment, I'd argue that there are also many people denigrating low mileage cars - "trailer queens," etc. - saying that they are maintenance nightmares. Every time a low mileage car turns up, people are quick to point out that the car may need as much money in servicing as a high mileage car.
     
  20. Tony K

    Tony K Formula 3

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    LOL -- excellent! :D
     
  21. hardtop

    hardtop F1 World Champ

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    True story. I have often given my personal experience with low mileage cars which has been uniformly excellent with no "garage queen" issues. However, a car that has been sitting for 10 years with no fluid changes, flat tires, etc. will definitely have issues.

    Dave
     

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