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MARS or BUST

Discussion in 'Other Off Topic Forum' started by racerx, Jan 13, 2004.

  1. racerx

    racerx Guest

    Nov 23, 2003
    879
    GW is about to announce a long term plan for human exploration of the moon and mars. I have always been a big fan of manned spaceflight ever since watching apollo land on the moon as a kid. I have seen a shuttle launch from the press area and it is something. As fans of exotic powerful machinery do you support the mission to mars as one of the best things govt. can spend money on or are you a member of the flat earth society?
    T
     
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  3. aawil

    aawil Formula 3

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    I've been checking every day or two for new mars imageson their website so i do like the program.Although i have serious doubts we ever stepped foot on the moon.
     
  4. Robin

    Robin F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
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    Please enlighten us as to how thousands of people involved in the space program managed to pull he wool over the world's eyes. Let me guess, you saw the special on Fox?

    Back on topic... I think a manned mission to Mars would be great, but I doubt it'll ever get off the ground (heh.) Public opinion probably won't go for it with the current state of affairs, since there are bigger problems to deal with closer to home. Plus I don't think Bush has the right reasons for doing any kind of manned mission to Mars or the moon. I get the impression he just wants to do it to one-up the Chinese. A proper scientific mission for the purpose of performing experiments on cultivation and habitation would be great, but my guess is that it's just nationalistic chest pounding... most likely with economic and military motivators.

    There was a good article on slate.com about this last week. The author railed against a sect of the pro-Mars types who keep talking about how "Americans" need to go to Mars, it's our "Manifest Destiny" etc. Essentially they've turned it into a modern American mission of cosmic colonialism, while ignoring the implications of such an outlook.

    -R
     
  5. CCarlisi

    CCarlisi Karting

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    "No firm cost estimates have been developed, but informal discussions have put the cost of a Mars expedition at nearly $1 trillion . . ." CNN
    http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/01/09/mars.moon.whats.needed.ap/index.html (Great article)

    I'm a big advocate of manned space flight, but it is difficult to make a favorable cost/benefit argument for a manned trip to Mars.

    -What can we accomplish with a manned mission to mars that cannot be accomplished by robots/probes?
    -How would placing a person on the surface add to the experience for those of us on earth? Either way we're watching via video. The real beneficiaries of the 1 trillion would be the astronauts that get to experience it first hand.
    -What impact will a successful trip to the moon by China have if the US does or does not place a person on mars?
    -Within the space program, what else could we do with 1 trillion dollars?

    Any thoughts?
     
  6. Evolved

    Evolved F1 Veteran

    Nov 5, 2003
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    Got tinfoil? I need to make a new hat.


    It's not the putting man on Mars that people really see the benefit of. It's the amazing technology we ALL eventually benefit from. Apollo jumped us decades ahead in some area's with the invention of new materials etc etc..

    Having the singular focus of Putting a man on Mars drives all involved to work hard and succeed and more importantly INNOVATE in ways we never thought of before.
     
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  8. racerx

    racerx Guest

    Nov 23, 2003
    879
    Great post but some things have to be understood - the part of the press that puts a huge price tag are those who do not want to go. Here is the sad fact of life, there are many who view everything as a part of the overall political battle. CNN, Slate etc...
    Regardless of price tag (apollo was not that pricey) that money does not get put in a large pile and burnt, it pays salaries, in the case of a long term space program mostly engineers, scientists, high tech factory workers - most of whom lean republican vs spending the money elsewhere paying the rent of girls who get knocked up and go on public assistance, counseling programs etc - almost all of which vote democrat. So when the program succedds in 20 years would you rather have a generation of intelligent engineers thinking of new products for earthlings or a generation of dope smoking, street hanging noaccounts.
    Just like columbus i believe it is mans destiny to explore ,live and colonize other worlds and i would prefer it be americans that lead the way as we have since 1776.
    T
     
  9. MarkG

    MarkG Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2003
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    All for it myself, always thought NASA should be properly funded.

    Seems one of the major benefactors of this sudden desire to explore space will be Halliburton and of course a few other Houston (read campaign fund donator) companies.

    No way in Hell is this group of MENSA candidates in DC doing this for science or knowledge.

    But no matter, it WILL create jobs and scientific knowledge - so I support it 100%.
     
  10. Dom

    Dom F1 Veteran
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    Yes, while we will all benefit from the technology, I would still argue that even without it, the scientific idea of putting humans on Mars is a noble goal in itself.

    WRT the "supposed" moon landing, one of the moon missions did place a mirror on the surface that is used to bounce a laser off the moon so that its distance can be very accurately calculated. It is my understanding that to this day, college students have used this mirror to perform various experiments.

    Dom
     
  11. noahlh

    noahlh Formula 3

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    Thinking about a manned mission to Mars gives me goosebumps (the good kind). I hope it happens in the next 20 years.

    And to anyone who says we shouldn't do it or that it's a waste of money or that there are more important things at home, etc, etc:

    Step back for a second and think about what this means. The big picture (and I mean the really big one). We, human beings, are about to _leave our PLANET_ and explore a NEW ONE. Do you understand what a milestone that would be in the grand scheme of humanity?

    How could anyone possibly say that "our domestic issues/terrorism/security/our economy/whatever" is more important than such a major step in the history of human beings?

    nlh
     
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  13. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    i'm for the idea of keeping an open mind and blah blah blah... That stuff is cool... i think we won't find out everything they find, though... i think they always keep stuff from us; tell us just enough to keep us pacified... i also think, if they need money, they'll fake set backs and stuff like that... & of course, we get squeezed... Gotta love this country... Currently, they have something up on Mars already, called Spirit...


    As far as the moon goes, if we really landed on it (unassisted), then why don't we just go back up...? How come we're going to Mars but not to the moon...? Mars is so much farther... Anyone...? Bueller...?
     
  14. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Its Not PC but Colonialism works. It worked for the Egyptian Pharoahs & later it worked for the Roman Empire for a long time then it made European countries superpowers from the 15th - 19th C. The US simply cannot allow China to establich a base on the Moon. Knowing the Chinese they would claim the whole Moon as Chinese territory & send up anti aircraft missiles w rocket motors to keep other countries out. I just love the Chinese govt, Not. Any country that makes a serious commitment to space exploration & mining will become the next superpower & the US cannot allow CHina or any other country to do that.

    SPace exploration serves many purposes, developing high tech, thousands of jobs, National pride, engineering challenges, increased knowledge of our universe, Vast new sources for natural resources that will dwarf the all the mines, oil fields etc of Earth combined. Most of all space exploration is necessary to ensure the survival of Humanity & Earth species. A Colony on the Moon or especially on Mars would ensure that if any calamity like a giant asteroid hit the Earth or nuclear war or a super virus or super volcano occured on Earth & endagered human & Earth life then humanity & Earth species could survive off the Mother world. THAT is the primary & most important aspect of space exploration. You say that an asteroid hitting the Earth is unrealistic ? Remember comet Shoemaker-Levy 9 that slammed into Jupiter & left a bruise the size of the Earth on Jupiter's atmosphere ? That comet would have destroyed life on Earth and it happened just 10 years ago
     
  15. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    i wasn't gonna bring this up, but since you did, it's all good...
    Would you rather watch people freeze and starve so we could play with red rocks a few million miles away or would you rather see the economy flourish...? Wouldn't it be nice to know that everyone else in the world had a similar hot meal as you, tonight...? Space exploration is good (a tad invasive maybe, but i won't go there) but to compare it to our economy and say it's more important is a little backwards to me...

    i'm not saying we shouldn't go up there... If the place is empty, hell, let's get up there and slap it around a bit... but not at the expense of someone's nourishment or warmth or at the expense of a school district's budget or at the expense of ANOTHER disastrous World Trade Center fiasco... Is jumping around on a little red planet more important than the lives of 3,000+ people...? Would you give up your wife or child(ren) for the opportunity to POSSIBLY discover something on another planet...?
     
  16. Evolved

    Evolved F1 Veteran

    Nov 5, 2003
    8,206
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    "I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the Earth."
    — Pres. Kennedy, May 25, 1961

    Dare to dream and dream big. JFK did and look what it got us.

    I hope GWB can get people to live his dreams so wonderfully as did Kennedy.

    We have the talent. We have the muscle. Lets go.
     
  17. 134282

    134282 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Now is that really the basis of an intelligent argument...? Just because you don't agree with the opinions of others, is there really a need to put them down...?
     
  18. Evolved

    Evolved F1 Veteran

    Nov 5, 2003
    8,206
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    As I try not to offend even the "special" patrons I decided to edit the message a minute or so after I posted. Thank you for your concern.
     
  19. racerx

    racerx Guest

    Nov 23, 2003
    879
    There is no shortage of food or schoolbooks JUST willpower. School budgets are bloated and so aren't most young kids nowadays. Schools only lack one thing - DISCIPLINE!!!!

    You should not have kids until you are in a position to properly care for them...

    ##########################################
    WILLIAMH wrote the most intelligent reply that i have EVER read on F-chat on any subject. Brilliant.
    #########################################

    T
     
  20. randall

    randall Formula 3

    Nov 2, 2003
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    That's a fact. Parents today seem to be more useless then ever, and schools are without any power to do anything because parents have made it that way.
     
  21. randall

    randall Formula 3

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    As far as going to Mars goes I think there's better things to be spending the money on right now. Space exploration is neat and all, but not something I want to pay for. Now if NASA was completely privatized I wouldn't care in the least. If Bill Gates wanted to colonize the moon (or Mars)and move MS there to avoid the jurisdiction of the US, more power to him. I'd rather just not see my money go to this project
     
  22. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    O.k. so we want to go to the moon agian huh? And set up a space moon colony. What then becomes of the international space station? Did all these countries involved just waste all kinds on money on a usless project? What real perpose will it serve?

    And for what perpose do they need to return to the moon for anyway? We've already been there. If it's just for a trip down memory lane then thats pretty expensive. They have all the rocks they need from there.

    Mars for what? We can send robots for less money and more then likley do a better job then an astronaut. Rock samples? just build a craft with a mechanicl arm to pick up the red rocks..shove them in a bucket and fly back home. We don't need to risk humans for a couple of red rocks. What they are doing now is fantastic work. I beleive this maybe the future of space travel for humans. Safe at home..let the robots do the dirty work.

    Do you guy realize they know less about the worlds oceans then they do mars? I'll bet if they spent half the money they spend on space exploration , researching the oceans, we would have no need to go into space. Cures for cancers and other terriable sicknesses are just waiting to be found in the oceans. But naaa lets go to Mars!!

    There is no intelligent life in our solar system. Maybe a type of moss or somthing but no aliens in flying saucers to be found. No elvis is not on Mars. Mars is a rock. Thats it. To think of it as anymore is foolishness. I guess it's just an ego thing when it comes down to it. What can we possiably gain form it? Do we really need to know that at one time, billions of years ago, Mars had a drop of water on it? What good will that do for us? All we say "wow thats neat" and turn the page in the paper. Useless endevor.

    Tom
     
  23. mondial85

    mondial85 Karting

    Sep 9, 2003
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    Ive usually against spending taxpayers money on most...well, anything...but I think this is an exciting and interesting idea. I would rather see our money go toward something like this than the 80+ billion GW want to spend on forign aid. I dont want people to think I dont have a social conscience, but there will always be poor and hungry. You can spend a billion dollars and feed every hungry mouth in the world today, but what about the day after that? The fight againt povery is one that we have been loosing for thousands of years and will continue to loose, but science and technology is an area we can excel in.
     
  24. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

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    You also heard story's about men never stepping their foot on the moon. I heard the whole thing was done in the studios in Hollywood and never happened for real.
    But I think it really happen.

    Same as for the people saying they saw fyling saucers and people saying the americans found an alien body.

    Only Bush , FBI..etc knows for sure.
     
  25. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
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    There are no alien's!! Funny how all these sights occured after the war of the worlds was broadcast on the radio. Funny how all these UFO's look like the cover of a 50's comic book. Funny how before movies and t.v. hardly any sightings of UFO's were recorded. Why do UFO's look like every other science fiction novel cover? UFO's are made up by story tellers, Yes there are strange things that fly around. But they ain't from space and deffinatly not from mars!!
     
  26. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    NASA & the Fed Govt have done a lousy job of educating the public about space exploration. That why we have ll these whiners moaning about starving people & we need to do more for people here, BLah, Blah, Blah.

    Imagine if the US never expanded beyond 13 colonies. We would be a backwards little state with France owning Louisiana & France & UK fighting over Canada & Spain owning everything W of the Mississippi. The US govt of the 18th & 19th C had the ballls to expand & claim the vast W & those huge resources helped to make the US a very wealthy country & a superpower. The resources available in space are far beyond the resources of our entire planet. Whichever country or Company has the ballls to claim them will be wealthy beyond all dreams of the 20th C & will be a superpower. THAT WHAT SPACE EXPLORATION IS ABOUT in large part. If the US rolls over & lets China grab all those resources then the US will get what it deserves for being meek. No US President can sit back & allow another country to acquire or claim the vast resources of space. To do so would make the US a 2nd world nation & the US would no longer be The superpower.

    Also after the Earth has acquired the mind numbingly vast resources of near space then feeding, housing & caring for 10 billion + future humans will be a lot easier than just depending on the relatively puny resources of 1 small planet
     
  27. shmark

    shmark F1 Rookie

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Amen. Just the resources of the moon itself will pay for the exploration over and over. Think if we could do something really ambitious like mining the asteroids. Anyone ever read Heinlein? I think he was conservative.

    Mark
     
  28. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Bova has some good books about mining asteroids. Its where humanity Must go for resources. Dr John Lewis has a great factual book called MINING THE SKY about space mining & resource exploitation
     

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