Massa intent on going one better in 2009

Fair enough Bas..

 

Well, you got me there, but the point in question is that a driver can rack up a lot of points in consquence of penalties handed out to others. It is a normal consequence of the penalty.

Give me some quotes. Besides, the penalty handed out to Bourdais had very little effect on the championship-standings. If the FIA were out to have Massa crowned champion (why?) don't you think they'd have better instruments AND that they would have actually succeeded? Not only is the statement that the FIA were out to manipulate the championship in Massa's favor without a factual base, it is without logic and therefor doesn't make any sense.

And there you go again with your flawed logic: the question is not that the penalty handed out to Bourdias was justified (and that is what all the fuss was about, and even I believe it wasn't justified), the question is that the penalty was handed out in order to give Massa/Ferrari an unfair advantage. It is important to make a distinction between the two, which you obviously fail to do.

Is it really a surprise that failing to deliver any proof, facts or even some logic, isn't going to convince me?

 

Just try me. Don't just talk, have at least the courtesy to back your statements with some evidence, or -again- just shut up about it.

 

Courtesy then you tell me to shut up!!! ... I posted picture's so to make it easier for you to comprehend, if you cannot see or do not want to understand that is your problem not mine, I'm not going to reiterate what Andreas pointed out or my reply to Bas, you are a lost cause. If it takes Porno Max or Bernie to admit it to convince you, then it's not going to happen. Still up to then I suggest you become a limbo dancer as everything goes over your head. You are the worst case of head in the sand I have come across.

But please, be my guest carry on..

 

I know I got you on the 94 statement, although I know that you mispoke and I understood your example: 94 was another classic text book case of the FIA manipulating the championship to keep it interesting. Schumacher did not deserve the race ban and I was glad he got the title despite the unfair manipulations.

Bourdais did not deserve the penalty, which he would have never received had it not been for Massa. I don't believe the FIA wanted to crown Massa champion, but he needed that one point to keep his championship chances alive. That was their intent: Just like in 94 to keep the title chase open.

I'm too lazy now to look up all the references but pretty much any newspaper, magazine or online site though that the penalty to Bourdais was unjustified and served only one purpose. But to give you a name, Lauda was one of the people speaking out.

BTW: In case you don't get my "For sure" joke. That's how Massa starts about every other sentence. Just like Schumacher said "To be honest" to begin every sentence.

And for the record: Yes, there is a realistic chance that Massa wins the title this year. Not just because everybody else gets the flu or teleported to the planet Xerxia, but because of his driving. If he does so without the FIA gifting points, I'm all for it. He has come a long way as a driver and is very fast and often consistent. I still don't like his personality and believe somebody else will win the title his year, but I will not exclude him for sure .

 

I have nothing against porno or anything, but what are the pictures you show are supposed to prove exactly? We can start up that whole debate again, but in the best case scenario I would agree that Bourdais' and Hamiltons penalties were undeserved, but that is not the debate here. The debate is whether or not they were handed out for the sole purpose of giving Massa the advantage. I think such prove does not exist. On the contrary, since Massa got penalized himself that race.

That is not a matter of head in the sand, that is a matter of taking what is presented to you and judge it objectively.

 

On this point we have to disagree. If the FIA were acting on these motives, they could've made it themselve easier by not giving him (Massa) the penalty in the first place. Surely they could not rely on the very remote possiblity that Massa would clash with someone else who they'd could penalize to give Massa the advantage? Perhaps it looks that way from a distance, but taking all the facts and circumstances of the entire season, it just doesn't make enough sense to have any real credibility.

I bet he was. Maybe sir Jacky Stewart as well. I stopped listening to those two a while ago. Somehow legendary driverskills does not make one a decent spokesperson. Look at the LH/KR incident in Spa. Almost every media-figure was convinced the punishment of Lewis was unfair, but on the other hand, the drivers that compete today were pretty unanimous in their view that the penalty was justified (Trulli, Rosberg, Alonso to name a few).

I didn't get that, but youre right, he does do that and it is quite annoying.

OK, you got me again. Or you are contradicting yourself or we were in agreement all this time. I am confused now.

 

I might have confused you because I said originally (like last year at this time) that Massa will never win a title. I changed that belief based on his improved driving last season. I think he has a realistic chance and I can't say with 100% certainty that he will never get the title. I'm more certain he will retire from F1 without a title to his name, but I can't say that for sure.

 

Ok let's look at your fact's:

Why not penalize the whole field of cars throughout the race that happen to cut corners, then let the FIA sort out the winners and losers at the table then.

LOL ^ A combination of words which is nonsense because the words suggest the opposite of some of the others, in other words a complete contradiction. The championship was won by 1 point the FIA were using there instruments!! penalty's to make it closer to close down Hamiltons lead, the point Massa gained made a big difference mentally and physically, it should have been given to Massa, at worst, no penalty at best...thats the whole point!!

What!! about turn time!! you agree it's unjustified, yet it suit's your argument so it's ok then, ahhh I see.

Why don't you provide proof or logic to the contrary.: It is not necesssary to understand things in order to argue about them, so please carry on.

If we were talking about backmarkers or mid field no one would care as much, but when it's the two driver's in the title hunt, it's got to be right!!

 

I'm getting the feeling we are attacking each other over a simple difference of opinion, group hug!!!

 

Because it is not the policy to hand out a penalty for incidentally cutting a corner. I am not saying I approve of every penalty that is handed out, I am saying that there is no proof that theyre handed out for the sole purpose of influencing the championship. Sure, that is a necessary concequence of the penalty, but that doesn't make it the objective of the penalty. There is a big difference.

If the FIA were in the business of rigging championships to have it come down to the wire, then where were they in 2002 or 2004?

Read carefully: I agree that the penalty handed out to Bourdais was unjustified, but I object to the notion that it was handed out for the sole purpose of giving an advantage to Massa. As said, that Massa benefited from the penalty, does not mean that that was the objective of the FIA to hand out the penalty in the first place.

It is impossible to prove so called negative facts. I can not prove that the FIA doesn't hand out penalties for the sole purpose of rigging the championship. Untill there is proof that they do, we have to assume they are using penalties for what they are meant: sanctioning drivers behaviour (on track). Even if it turns out that sometimes they don't do a very good job in this department, that still doesn't mean they are purposely falsifying the competition.

Just think about the consequences if it was fact that they were. A lot of international companies put a lot of money in F1 in order to win. Do you surely believe that they would put their faith in the hands of an organisation which is known for influencing the championship as they please? Do you actually believe their stakeholders would let them?

It is true that penalties that have a direct effect on the topposition in the championshipstandings generate a lot more (media)attention, but that is only to be expected and is in no way an argument against the FIA.

 

Geezz... so we are in agreement after all. I can not and will not guarantee that Massa will ever become champ, but I object to the notion that it is out of his reach all together. Apperantly, that is not your point of view either. Well, sorry if I came out a little strong.

 

Wouldn't hurt.

Despite our obvious differences in opinion, as F1 fans we have more in common with each other than with the rest of the folks. Something that's true for many groups beating each other up.

 

No problem.

1982 showed me that anything is possible. But a Massa WDC doesn't even need freak accidents of the winning people. He got close enough last year on his own merits.

That's also why I look forward to this year: With the many changes it is hard to predict anything. Who knows, maybe Kubica will win one race after another. Or Glock in the Toyota. Enough variables have been altered for it to be possible.

On the other hand: The more things get changed in F1 the more they stay the same: The cream will once again rise to the top and when the dust settles it will be the familiar names at the top.

 

However this is the problem...people watching, excitement makes $$$ .. this is what was created taking it to the wire.
If you would have been happy for Massa to have won the WDC on such a basis, then so be it! I wouldn't no matter what driver won it. I do not trust Max or Bernie, MS showed how to wrap a season up halfway through, and IMO them two snakes won't let it happen again!!..

 

What kraftwerks pictures show is that bourdais was clearly on the inside as much as he could (he's on the curbs) and that it was massa could have gone wider to avoid the touch that led to a spin. What it means is that bourdais shouldnt have gotten a penalty and its one of the things that leads to the whole 'FIA wants Ferrari to win' controversy.

I'm offcourse a Ferrari fan but im all for fairness.

Look at a different sport, boxing. A couple of weeks ago Evander Holyfield went up to fight Nikolai Valuev (whom i support). Valuev did sweet FA all 12 rounds, and Evender fought brilliantly. Yet the judges decided that the fight was won by Valuev.

thats a bit like what allegedly happens with the FIA as well. Do we want the sport to be decided by judges instead of who finishes first? thought so.

 

I agree it was Massa who made the mistake.

 

IN the lastest F1 Racing he readily admits his mistakes, including the hit on LH. Something other drivers often fail to do. He is also well liked in the paddock and by the press according to the article. He seems to have a much smaller ego than most and the entire interview was very enlightening about him. The author could not say enough good things about him as a genuine person.

He does ALOT of good things with his fame and money in Brazil. He was in the article opening a reading lab in his name at a school and spent many hours speaking and motivating the students and personally meeting almost all in attendance. Id say he is quite a giving human being and would make a great champion in Brazil. He also says he would NEVER compare himself to Senna. I find the man completely open and he also mentions he paid for both of his Ferrari's ( he did add he got a nice discount) Im liking the man more and more and the press coverage is about 99% positive. He also outlines his humble background as well. Refreshing read if you can obtain it.

No matter how well or poorly he does this year, he has been shown to have a nice bit of humanity. That I always admire in a person with such a position and fame.

 

I was not demeaning Felipe in anyway as I think he is a great person and driver.

 

OH no I did not take your comment in a negative light at all. I was adding that yes it was his mistake and he does admit to them.

 

He is definitely not your typical F1 driver for sure in that sense.

 

Ecclestone backs Massa for title

Eurosport - Thu, 15 Jan 16:25:00 2009

Ferrari's Felipe Massa deserves to win the world title this season, Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone said.
FORMULA 1 Bernie Ecclestone - 0
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Massa finished second behind McLaren's Lewis Hamilton last year after the Briton grabbed fifth spot on the final corner of the season-ending Brazilian Grand Prix to pip the Ferrari driver by a point.

Hamilton lost out on the 2007 title by a point to Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen.

"I hoped that Felipe would do something last year so let's hope he does it this year," Ecclestone said on a surprise visit to Ferrari's ski retreat.

"Lewis had back luck the year before and won the championship, Felipe had bad luck last year so I hope this year he recovers."

Ecclestone remains keen to implement a change in the scoring system whereby the driver that wins the most races, or gold medals, becomes the champion.

He was unsure if his idea would be adopted for this season, which starts in Australia on March 29.

"Forget the word medals, I just think the guy that wins the most races should win the championship. I don't think a guy that is second who's got a lot of points should be world champion, that's all," he said.

"This year a lot of them sat there being second. It's up to the teams to really push that through. I hope they have enough sense to agree."

Ecclestone reaffirmed his opposition to the introduction of the KERS on cars this season, saying the cost could balloon at a time when the sport was trying to save money during the credit crunch.

The Briton had never previously visited Ferrari's ski retreat but denied he had come to smooth over tensions with Ferrari president Luca Di Montezemolo after some recent spats.

"It's not my intention [to meet him]. To be honest it's a cheap weekend for me," he added.
Reuters

 

Not Massa's fault.

 

True. But it would have been a travesty if he had won the title that way.