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McLaren F1 LMs in the USA?

Discussion in 'General Automotive Discussion' started by SupraSeb, Dec 27, 2005.

  1. SupraSeb

    SupraSeb Karting

    Dec 6, 2004
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    Sebastien Migneault
    I have seen a few pictures of a McLaren F1 LM in the United States with Massachusetts tags, I was curious as who owned the car and if it was the only one here. Some pictures of it would be appreciated as well :)
     
  2. teak360

    teak360 F1 Veteran
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    Nov 3, 2003
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    The car is now owned by Ralph Lauren. Peloton will get you some nice pictures I'll bet.
     
  3. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    Erik
    The car you have seen photos of is LM3 and as teak360 mentions it is now owned by RL. Previously the car belonged to Frank Selldorff of MA. He sold the car to RL almost exactly 1 year ago.

    It is the only F1 LM known to be here in the USA. Three are still in Brunei (possibly lost forever) and the fourth is in Japan as of about 5 months ago with it's original owner and should still be there. The LM prototype is on display in the McLaren Technology Center in England. That accounts for all of them.

    I'm not able to attach files from the connection I am on, but here's one photo taken by an associate of Mr Selldorff's:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1/10867617-L.jpg

    ...and many more of the car at the two links below. :cool:

    http://douging.smugmug.com/gallery/814285

    http://dugmar.smugmug.com/gallery/614283

    >8^)
    ER
     
  4. GianPaolo

    GianPaolo Formula Junior

    Dec 4, 2004
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    #4 GianPaolo, Dec 27, 2005
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  5. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    Yes - it does look great.

    That particular car in your photo is actually an F1 GTR that has been repainted to look like an LM. It is a '96-spec GTR - chassis #11R.

    There are a minimum of 5 F1 GTRs that have been resprayed in Papaya Orange over the past few years which makes it a bit confusing spotting a real LM. There are some visual differences - one of which can be seen in that shot is the small duct just ahead of the rear wheel which is found on GTRs but is not there on a real LM.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  6. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    Why would anyone spend money ont he LM commerative cars when the GTRs exist? Even assuming only 2 exist, one is a run of five in commemoration of the race-winning cars, and then there are the actual race-winning cars. For roughly the same money (if not less), one can pick up one of the five 95 GTRs, or evne the 96s.

    --Dan
     
  7. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    Erik
    I guess it's a matter of preference for those with the funds to purchase either one. I suspect that most GTR owners, even the ones converted for road use, would prefer to own an LM. Remember the LM is designed as a road car from the outset, based on a racing car - think Challenge Stradale. Unless it is a dedicated track toy, the GTRs have compromises that make them less usable.

    They have equipment/switches/ECUs occupying the right passenger seat area rendering it useless, unlike the LMs which retain the road version 3-seat layout. GTRs all have a built in rollcage which the LMs don't have, making entry and exit more difficult and making it unwise to drive without a helmet or proper FIA padding covering the bars. LMs also have nearly 50 additional horsepower making them faster than their GTR brethren.

    The LM was really the ultimate F1 in many ways. Race cars on the other hand, especially those which compete in endurance races, typically lead a very hard life. Personally I could be satisfied owning a standard road car and a GTR, but I would be lying if I didn't say I'd still be a bit jealous of the guy with the LM in his garage. :D

    >8^)
    ER
     
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  8. SupraSeb

    SupraSeb Karting

    Dec 6, 2004
    89
    Port St Lucie, FL
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    Sebastien Migneault
    Thanks for the info and the links, that's some nice pictures I have never seen before :) How much money do the LMs usually change hands for? I remember hearing around 4-5m, maybe more?
     
  9. Ferrari0324

    Ferrari0324 F1 Rookie

    Mar 20, 2004
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    Erik, there were only 100 Mclaren F1's built right? What was the production run by year, and does that include LM's and GTRs?
     
  10. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    Erik
    There were a total of 106 F1s produced of all variations over a period of about 6 years. The very first McLaren F1 prototype (XP1) was completed in late 1992 and the final production car wearing chassis #075 was completed in May 1998.

    There were a total of 64 F1 road cars (chassis' #001 -> #075 - some numbers were omitted), plus 5 prototypes (XP1 -> XP5)

    There were 9 '95-spec (#01R -> #09R), 9 '96-spec (#10R -> #18R) and 10 '97-spec (#19R -> #28R) longtail F1 GTRs produced.

    There were 5 LMs produced (LM1 -> LM5), plus one prototype (XP1 LM).

    There were two F1 GT longtails (54F1GT & 58F1GT), plus one prototype (56XPGT).

    64 +5 +9 +9 +10 +6 +3 = 106 cars.

    They also built one spare chassis which may have been used by now to repair a wrecked car. I know of 4 or 5 cars of the 106 which have been written off, and there could be a few more.

    To answer the second portion of your question, the first complete prototype (XP1) was finished in 1992, with the remaining four being built through 1993.

    The first customer car completed was chassis #002 which they finished December 23rd, 1993 as I recall. Chassis #001 followed in 1994, along with 23 other F1s. The first GTR (#01R) was also built in 1994 and would go on to win LeMans the following year.

    In 1995 there were 15 more F1 road cars completed, plus the remaining 8 '95-spec GTRs. The first of the '96-spec GTRs, and the LM prototype were finished just before the end of 1995 as well.

    In 1996 there were a total of seven F1 road cars built, along with the 8 remaining '96-spec GTRs, the 5 customer F1 LMs, and the first longtail F1 GTR.

    In 1997 they built 11 F1 road cars, the other 9 '97-spec longtail GTRs and the three F1 GT longtail road cars.

    In 1998 they built 6 road cars and then production was finished.

    For more detail on this info I would recommend a peek at the McLaren F1 model guide on QV500 - http://www.qv500.com/indexmclaren.php

    >8^)
    ER
     
  11. Senna1994

    Senna1994 F1 World Champ

    Nov 11, 2003
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    Erik your knowledge is incredible. Just incredible. Thanks for the updates.
     
  12. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

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    Sure thing - I'm always happy to share when I can. :cool:

    The first price reported for the sale of the LM to RL was $2.75M. Later on, a better source stated the selling price was actually closer to $4M. That's the only real info I have seen/heard on LM pricing that is worth sharing. I do not know what Mr Selldorff paid for the car, but he did inform me that he was only given a short period of time to decide if he wanted the car and felt the price was one he couldn't pass on. The previous owner of LM3 was David Morrison in the UK and there are news reports of legal and financial trouble for him which may have forced a hasty sale of the car. I haven't gotten the specifics on that from a trustworthy source though, only some news articles found on the web.

    Mr Selldorff did mention to me at one point that LM3 is really the only F1 LM on the market as the car in Japan will likely not be sold any time soon, and the other three customer LMs are still in Brunei. Even if those did eventually surface, their condition at this point would be extremely questionable. :(

    >8^)
    ER
     
  13. SupraSeb

    SupraSeb Karting

    Dec 6, 2004
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    Port St Lucie, FL
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    Sebastien Migneault
    Do you know if that F1 LM is fully registered and street legal or is it registered as a show & display car?

    Also, do you know who owns the 3 longtails?
     
  14. BlueBiturbo

    BlueBiturbo F1 Rookie

    May 19, 2004
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    I think one of the LT is in Japan (ZAZ), a metallic red one. I don't know where the other 2 are (one of it is dark metallic green)
     
  15. Ferrari0324

    Ferrari0324 F1 Rookie

    Mar 20, 2004
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    Geez Erik. Thank you for the EXTREMELY detailed information. Haha, you're the Carbon of Mclarens.
     
  16. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    LM3, like most F1s here in the USA, was approved for importation under Show & Display. This means that it can be registered and would then be street legal, but you are limited to 2500 miles per year on those cars. When Mr Selldorff had it they drove it around on a Massachusetts "Repair" plate, similar to what we in CA (and many other states) have as "Dealer" plates. I don't believe it was ever really registered in the state of MA, but I could be wrong.

    There are seven F1s in the USA which got in before Show & Display was introduced and those cars seem to have no limitations on them as far as use or sale is concerned. When Show & Display was enacted, those cars were supposed to be grandfathered under the regulation but only Ralph Lauren submitted S&D applications for the two out of that seven that he owns and then those applications were withdrawn an have not been resubmitted.

    One of the longtails (58F1GT) is owned by the Japanese owner that has LM2. A photo of both those cars together can be found at the bottom of this post. The other customer LM is either owned by Brunei Royal Family, or could be owned by someone named John S in the UK. I have the proper spelling of his last name at home somewhere and don't want to butcher it so I will post it later. There has been some debate on this and no real proof of either story. Hopefully the details will come out soon.

    The third F1 GT is the prototype, and as far as I know it has always been owned by McLaren, but about 2-3 years ago it was offered for sale for £1M. Here's a screenshot from a DVD made a little more than a year ago which included a brief tour of the McLaren Technology Center where the SLRs are produced:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1/SuperCars-65.jpg

    It hasn't been seen in any recent photos taken at either the MTC or the old facility that still houses McLaren Customer Care in Woking, England. That makes it's current status somewhat questionable, but until we learn something new we will keep working off the latest info.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  17. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    LOL - almost.

    It should be noted that I don't have any tattoos and I have never bought any F1s a birthday cake. ;) Carbon is truly one of a kind. :D

    >8^)
    ER
     
  18. rush109

    rush109 F1 Veteran

    May 26, 2005
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    Josh McRae
    got a question....im sure ive seen one wether it be a LM or a repainted GTR in a gumball event a few years ago...can you confirm my spoting???
     
  19. SRT Mike

    SRT Mike Two Time F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Raymond Luxury Yacht
    Whats the deal on the Brunei cars?

    I had heard that he amassed an amazing collection - we all know this by now - that contained one-offs and lots of amazing exotics. I also heard there was some trouble in the family and the collection fell into disrepair.

    However, I have also heard that the cars were not well maintained when they were actively being used.

    If the Brunei family owns 3 out of 5 LMs in the world, what is the deal with them? Are they in storage in a bunker in Brunei? Are some cars coming up for sale? I have seen a LOT of Brunei cars go across the block in recent years. Who owns the cars and what are their intentions (if they are known).

    At some point, the existing owners of these 3 LMs will lose interest or die, and maybe at some further point the cars will come up for sale. Any details on the Brunei McLarens are welcome!
     
  20. SupraSeb

    SupraSeb Karting

    Dec 6, 2004
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    Port St Lucie, FL
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    Sebastien Migneault
    That answers my question, I was wondering this since I have seen some TRUE(not limited to 2500miles under show & display) street legal F1s before. Thanks a lot for all the info. Another question, I have seen posts about that guy in japan who owns many cars including one lm and on longtail, but who is he exactly and is there any website where we can see his cars?
     
  21. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

    Jan 24, 2004
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    Erik
    The orange F1 that participated in the Gumball across Europe in 1999 was in fact LM3. That occurred when the car was owned by David Morrison.

    Of note, Gordon Murray's own son Dylan competed in that Gumball 3000 in a Light Car Company Rocket, along with the Rocket's co-creator's son, Luke Craft. They failed to finish due to some technical difficulty, but were still awarded the First Place trophy - gotta love the Gumball. :D

    These are all great questions, but unfortunately all the answers I have are fuzzy at best. Essentially any cars still in Brunei would be owned by the Royal Family. Most were purchased by the Sultan's brother Jefri during a period when money was absolutely no object, but later on he was cut off from the family and even kicked out of the country when his spending habits were exposed. You are correct that several of their unique cars have begun to appear in collections or for sale outside Brunei, but it seems that a larger number are still unaccounted for, especially some of the most desirable ones.

    For many years the cars in Brunei were actually very well cared for. In fact most of the factories which supplied a steady stream of cars to Brunei also had mechanics there on site to care for the cars, including McLaren. At some point these technicians were all sent home and many of the cars which were not stored in doors in climate controlled environments fell into a very sad state due to the extreme heat/humidity in that part of the world. Cars like their F1s were kept in a special facility near Jerudong Park and may have been spared from the harsh elements that literally destroyed so many cars in the collection.

    Its been reported that they purchased anywhere from 8-10 F1s in total (including the 3 LMs) and so far only one F1 road car is known to have escaped from Brunei. A very recent discussion on that particular car can be found here. As I mentioned in that thread, when it arrived back at McLaren the car was reportedly not in great shape from some period of neglect which may mean that the other F1s in Brunei have reached a similar fate. I have yet to speak with any good sources who have seen the F1s there in several years to know what is true, but at the same time these other cars have not surfaced anywhere else so it's probable to believe they are still locked up in Brunei.

    His last name is supposedly Tsuzuki and he owns a car museum in Nagoya, Japan called ZENT Amusement Zone, or ZAZ. ZENT has some affiliation with Toyota in motorsports sponsorships over many years, so I have always suspected that the owner of the museum has close ties with Toyota Motor Corp. The museum doesn't have a website, and there isn't really a place on the web where you can view the collection in it's entirety. In fact at most times of the year cameras are actually not allowed inside the museum so only a limited number of photos have come out of the cars. The Japanese magazine "Rosso" did a story on the F1s from the museum this year and at the time he had the LM, the GT, a white F1 (chassis #051) and GTR #13R. The GTR has since been sold twice, and the white F1 was offered for sale and has probably been sold. It was a very low mile original car and the asking price was reported at $1.7M.

    Here's an image of all four cars together:

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1/dp037.jpg

    ...and here are scans of two pages from the magazine showing more angles on the four cars.

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1/Page_38.jpg
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/Peloton25/McLaren%20F1/Page_39.jpg

    You will find some additional photos of the LM and GT taken inside the museum several years ago at these two links:

    http://www.tu5j4.com/MC_F1LM.html

    http://www.tu5j4.com/MC_F1GT.html

    >8^)
    ER
     
  22. BMW.SauberF1Team

    BMW.SauberF1Team F1 World Champ

    Dec 4, 2004
    12,681
    Peloton, when was the second time 13R was sold? Do you mean that it was sold again after it was sold in Australia or was that the 2nd time and the first was from the race team to the ZAZ owner? Assuming the race team owner isn't the ZAZ guy...
     
  23. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

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    The first sale I'm counting was from ZAZ in Japan to Maranello Motorsports in AUS. The second sale was from MM on to whomever it's new owner might be, supposedly in the UK or Europe. Those are the only ones we know about with any certainty, but there are photos of the ZAZ museum that don't show #13R there, so he may not have been the original Japanese owner once the car's racing career ended. It's too tough to guess and we don't have a good source on the car's history between 1997 and 2004.

    >8^)
    ER
     
  24. judge4re

    judge4re F1 World Champ

    Apr 26, 2003
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    The cars that came in before S&D were actually federalized (DOT and EPA). I believe that Dick Fritz did the conversions on most, if not all of them.
     
  25. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran

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    Erik
    He was indeed the one, using a separate company called Ameritech Corp with claims of help from JK Technologies. Those familiar with the process the seven cars went through to get their papers have stated there was a lot of funny business involved.

    I'm certainly not too upset over it as finally having F1s here in the USA was one of the things that fueled my passion to learn even more about the cars. The car in it's converted form sure was U-G-L-Y though. :D

    >8^)
    ER
     

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