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Mileage on your F.car, is it a killer

Discussion in 'United Kingdom' started by 360CS, Nov 16, 2003.

  1. 360CS

    360CS F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,641
    Kent
    Full Name:
    Joe J
    I have spoken to a lot of dealers and Ferrari specialists in the past few weeks just to get an idea of how much different mileage levels depreciate later reg Fcars.

    Can anyone throw some light hear, I for one have bought my car for the sheer enjoyment, however i am anxious that the more miles i clock on this car the value could be reducing dramatically..

    Whats the rule hear, looking at todays cars based on 360 spider normal spec :

    02 Spider 2k 115 - 125k
    Spider 6-8k 108 - 115k
    Spider 8-12k 100 - 108k

    These ive taken from average costings in various private and Main Dealerships all over the UK.

    Different cars and different prices, but the levels of depreciation at the later end of the market seem to remain the same or similar.

    What do you guys go work on , I suppose it also depends if you really give a sh.t too!!


    I also had some interesting chat about buying used cars say if you go to buy a used f.car most of us are looking for a good History, but I recently discussed this topic with a few f guys and they said it dont really mean that much.

    Of coarse if joe bloggs garage is stamped on the book its not worth a look, but even if Maranello have looked after the car whos to say that the last two days of ownership werent thrashed to the limit by the previous owner.

    I think a lot of these guys were right when they said " Look at the car for what it is when your buying it" the history is just a good story.

    What do you guys all think???????
     
  2. 456mgt

    456mgt Formula Junior

    Mar 24, 2002
    622
    Cambridge UK
    Full Name:
    Kevin
    I care about this if I don't intend to keep the car for very long. While I've never bothered to check how much less a higher mileage example will sell for, it has to be significantly cheaper or your 'average' buyer won't bite. Don't think the 'average' buyer frequents these boards, and they'll prefer a car with low mileage. I prefer there to be a mileage buffer so I can rack up those miles myself then sell on the car with normal miles on it.

    The flip side is that 'in demand' cars, such as Spiders, seem to be able to find buyers quite readily, so you probably have less to worry about.

    The main value determinant still seems to be age though, making it less of an issue if you hang on to the car.

    Kevin
     
  3. tonyh

    tonyh F1 World Champ
    Owner Lifetime Rossa

    Dec 23, 2002
    14,372
    S W London
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    Tony H
    I think we as buyers of high performance sports cars have been brain washed into buying low miles, full main dealer serviced cars .We are told [by the dealers] that to do anything else isn't worth the risk.I am as guilty as the next man and when i bought my 355 i scoured the classifieds and glossies looking for the perfect low miles ,one owner car, which i eventually bought.I bought the car 2.5 yrs ago and it had done 6.6 k miles in 5.5 yrs!
    I didn't know about f-chat when i bought this car but if i had i would prob have bought another with higher miles and not given it a 2nd thought.Kevin's spot on when he says these things matter a lot when the car is new and especially so if you intend to chop it in within 18 mths .....
    Tony
     
  4. stevetr

    stevetr Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2003
    379
    Surrey, UK
    Full Name:
    Stephen
    Before buying my 1990 TR, I spent some time looking around comparing mileage, condition and pricing. In the TR market, the target mileage seems to be around 2k per year (my car is 13 years old and has 27k on the clock, which is typical). Cars well under this figure are potential problems, having most likely been garaged for excessive periods. Those with substantially more mileage are likely to achieve lower figures as the need for an engine rebuild draws closer.

    13 years on and I don't think our motoring habits have changed that much. I would suggest that sticking around 2k (or perhaps 3k) miles per year is still the benchmark for future resale of your 360.

    Steve
     
  5. 360CS

    360CS F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    2,641
    Kent
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    Joe J

    Steve/Tony/Kevin

    Ive sh.t it then steve, because ive done me 3k in 6 months...wont be on any more rideouts now...lol.

    Im looking at maybe letting mine go in march - april next yr with 6k on clock so that will be over your average figure Steve....I think you can expect to see more miles on later cars as most use them than on older Tipos..

    I bloody hope so anyway....
     
  6. stevetr

    stevetr Formula Junior

    Sep 29, 2003
    379
    Surrey, UK
    Full Name:
    Stephen
    Joe, if you're looking to sell after just one year then that's a different market. My 'averages' don't really apply over such a short period. Just keep enjoying the car!

    It's a funny thing. There must be a lot of 10+ year old F-cars with 60+k miles on the clock, but how often do you see them advertised? Practically never. I wonder if it's a case of intermittent odometer electronics? Just a thought! :)

    Steve
     
  7. Modificata

    Modificata F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2003
    2,650
    Hampton, England
    Full Name:
    Andy Rasool
    Funny you should be talking high miles. I came across a 85 Mondial with 78K miles on the clock with FSH (Big thick file). My initial thought was too high, but then I thought is it? Its been used fairly regular so will have less mechanical gremlins. Plus I understand it is not uncommon for these cars to have their mileometers disconnected, so 78K miles is probably true. Who is to say that a 40K mile car was not driven around half its life with the mileometer disconnected?

    Joe I will say this. If I was in your position I would drive the car. 6K over one year is not that high, and think about the fun you would have too!
     
  8. kenyon

    kenyon F1 Rookie

    Oct 7, 2002
    2,836
    East Yorkshire
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    Justin Kenyon
    I have a friend that has using his 456 GT 1995 everyday for work. He bought it nearly new with one owner with 10,000 mile on it. The car has covered 180,000 miles. The car has gone through loads of tyres, two radiators and ser of shockers/dampers, set of front discs.
    The car runs and runs. That's how you drive a Ferrari, live it everyday.

    I had a maserati that I sold that covered 173,000 miles in four years....


    The cars are to be driven. Not just to look at.
     
  9. kenyon

    kenyon F1 Rookie

    Oct 7, 2002
    2,836
    East Yorkshire
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    Justin Kenyon
    I have a friend that uses his 456 GT 1995 everyday for work. He bought it nearly new with one owner with 10,000 mile on it. The car has covered 180,000 miles. The car has gone through loads of tyres, two radiators and ser of shockers/dampers, set of front discs.
    The car runs and runs. That's how you drive a Ferrari, live it everyday.

    I had a maserati that I sold that covered 173,000 miles in four years....


    The cars are to be driven. Not just to look at.


    The Ferraris can handle the miles but need to be serviced at normal intervals.... Lets get driving...
     
  10. Modificata

    Modificata F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2003
    2,650
    Hampton, England
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    Andy Rasool
    Amazing Kenyon! I'm so glad that there are people alive like that!

    Think about the smiles per miles!
     
  11. Modificata

    Modificata F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2003
    2,650
    Hampton, England
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    Andy Rasool
    Kenyon

    How have the engine and gearbox held up on the 456? Has he had either of them re-built?

    Do you on the Maserati?
     
  12. kenyon

    kenyon F1 Rookie

    Oct 7, 2002
    2,836
    East Yorkshire
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    Justin Kenyon
    His 456GT has never had the engine rebuilt or the gearbox/diff. The oil services are done at 6,000 miles every time. The car i looked after a sports car specialist now that repairs jags, astons, porsches, ferrari, tvr's etc.. I think the clutch has been replaced twice and he is on his third. He goes to Europe a lot and on his return home to the uk stops off at the Ring for thrash. The head gasket has been replaced a few months ago to the age and miles the gasket has done. I would not call that a engine rebuild as such. My maserati had the head gasket changed as a precautionary measure. I understand the gasket get weak due to temperature changes over long periods and miles...

    The smiles always makes up for the depreciation value...

    Last year it failed the MOT because the door sills starting rotten through. He had some welding done it under the floor plan. The car is driven in all weather and cleaned only once a week. Usually in the winter the car is always wet.


    My Maserati 430 Bi-turbo was the same. The turbos went at 100,000 miles and blow the diff up twice due to 400 bhp from at the rear wheels. Basically the car was great. I really only had to change belts and oil and filter. it only ever han one clutch replaced on it from new.

    He will never sell the 456Gt its it his personnel company/private car through his business. Thats cool.
     
  13. Modificata

    Modificata F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Apr 27, 2003
    2,650
    Hampton, England
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    Andy Rasool
    Kenyon

    I love it. We always cherish and pamper cars like this, and often lose site of the fact that these are only cars at the end of the day. Besides spending so much money to park a car in the garage is such a waste.

    Its interesting to see that both you and your friend experienced little problems with your cars given they were used regular. I used to own a Toyota Carina estate which was ultra reliable. Then I stopped driving it for about 7 months and when I finally got it started again the thing ran like a dog. I was amazed at how many things had gone wrong with the car. I planned on sending it to my mechanic to fix it up till one day it got nicked! Didnt have it insured either, since I wasnt drving it. Oh well...
     
  14. kenyon

    kenyon F1 Rookie

    Oct 7, 2002
    2,836
    East Yorkshire
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    Justin Kenyon
    I use my 348 Spider a lot during the week, weekends through the year....

    I do not use the 348 spider as much as my mate or my maserati because I work on a petrolchemical site and cars are prone to decay due to corrsive elments in the amtomsphere. When I get home I take it for a blast. I try stay away from salty roads.

    If you can afford the fuel then use the Ferrari as a daily drive. I know a lot of porsche owners that drive their cars everyday, why not a ferrari...
     
  15. Robertb

    Robertb Formula 3

    Nov 19, 2003
    1,330
    South Oxfordshire, U
    Full Name:
    Robert
    I just sold a 328GTS that had done 49k miles. Its condition was superb, and being a 1988 car had still done less than 3,500 miles per year. It had a thick history file, with bills, not just stamps in the book.

    I'd rather have a car that had been used and enjoyed rather than one that had sat in a garage doing nothing for weeks at a time.

    That said, when I tried to p/x it, the trade did offer much because of the miles. I sold it privately to a guy who I know will enjoy it.

    Low mileage it what Ferrari buyers demand- Porsches tend to carry more miles, and buyers don't care. People think of Ferraris as fragile and hance shy away from higher miles. I'd therefore say such cars make a smart buy, so long as the condition and history is right- 360s can handle the miles- they are designed to be used, so Mr Montezemolo says.

    The solution is don't sell it!
     
  16. Malfark

    Malfark F1 Veteran

    Oct 31, 2002
    5,307
    Mud Island, Europe
    Full Name:
    Markem
    Hi Gents,

    After a long search I eventually tracked down my 328 GTS in a small village in Germany. It was a two-owner 1986 model, originally registered in France and with only 23,371 miles on the clock. The car was registered to the seller’s company in Germany, and he had acquired the it 10 years earlier after it had returned from a short stay in the USA.

    For the previous seven years the car had been on German "dealer plates", had only been driven once a month in the summer, and had been carefully looked after in the seller’s garage. He had a full service record and log-book for the car and indicated to me that it had never been driven in the rain. As a long-time Italian car owner, I studied the car in the finest detail and was happy to find near-perfect body-work. The car still had its original paint job and was only on its second set of tyres.

    The car was also mechanically sound and, although the engine was dusty (from years in a garage), it started from cold without hesitation. It sounded superb! The last major service was just under 2,000 km earlier at which time the cam belt was also changed. The tyres were 7 years old and, although still with good tread, would clearly need replacing. As mentioned above, the car had never been driven in the rain or in the winter. There was no rust and the alloy rims were unscuffed, bar normal wear.

    I made and offer and finally got the 328 for a good (early-winter) price! Heeding warnings on F-Chat, the car went through a major service and I replaced the (almost new) cam-belts and tensioners. Although they had done less than 2,000 km, they had a few years on them and I was advised that they were past the "use by" date. With new tyres and replacement gas struts for the rear lid, the car was neigh perfect.

    Following further F-Chat advice, the car has not been a "garage queen" and (although my job takes me abroad a lot) I have managed to do 4,000 miles this year. Next year I will certainly do more than that.

    So, I concur with the sentiments above. I don't think there's a rule of thumb when it comes to depreciation - there are multiple variables to consider, and every car needs to be assessed as an individual.

    Cheers, MARK
     
  17. sindo308qv

    sindo308qv F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    3,518
    miami.fl.
    Full Name:
    sindo
    The more you drive your car the better. If you let it sit around, thats when problems start. Just like the human body, let it sit around.....well you know.I've put 12,000 miles on my 308qv in a year and a half. I drive her every weekend.I can't understand having the most coveted motorcar in the world and letting it sit. For that buy a poster and look at that in your garage.Lifes too short.Could you imagine being with Catheren Zeta Jones and not ------- her????Didn't think so.
     
  18. jrs

    jrs Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2003
    1,672
    UK
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    James S
    Joe

    There is a crazy attachment to mileage on F-cars. My 95 355 has now done 11000 miles and the main dealers raise their eyebrowes when you tell them that it has done all these miles in 9 years !!! Seems to me that with all the maintenance costs one should be looking to do at least 3-4k miles per year.

    James
     
  19. FerrariFrank1

    FerrariFrank1 F1 Rookie

    Aug 15, 2003
    3,887
    Chicago-Phoenix-L.A.
    Full Name:
    Frank
    Hello there from Chicago! Hope you don't mind me "Buttin' in" here,but, was interested in yor topic. I,too,at first,was somewhat "Terrified"-? to put miles on the "clock",so to speak,on my 1981 308. I bought it 3 years ago,with only 14,250 miles and freshly serviced. When it approached 15,000, I was "Sweating" a little. Then 16,000,still "anxious" but,made it through. 17K was a little easier,but,still hard. 18K,I was with my 6 year old Son,and we made a big deal about it. Then,I really thought about it. I am 43 years old. Life is short,and getting shorter every day. I've wanted a Ferrari since I was 17. And,I lost one of my best Buddies when we were 36. Life is TOOO short. And,I have a Ferrari! I need to ENJOY that car as MUCH as I possibly can. Not let it sit in my garage,"saving" the mileage,or,"saving" it for someone else. That car was "Saved" for me,and,I am going to enjoy the Sh*t out of it for as long as I can! And,NOT worry about the Miles any more. And,it will always be worth,at least,what I paid for it. Unless they go up someday.But,who cares! Today. Right now. I'm just going to enjoy my car,and not worry about that! Enjoy yours,too!!! WE are lucky that we have a Ferrari to enjoy!!! Think of all the poor Bastards that don't have one!! :(
     
  20. fly

    fly Karting

    Nov 20, 2003
    124
    Sydney, Australia
    Full Name:
    Steve
    VERY WELL SAID FRANK! I think that says it all, I totally agree, that’s why I drive mine as much as possible, nearly everyday and I find my maintenance time off the road is next to none, only scheduled maintenance.
     
  21. sindo308qv

    sindo308qv F1 Rookie

    Nov 1, 2003
    3,518
    miami.fl.
    Full Name:
    sindo
    Amen Frank.My sentiments exactly.By the way I bought my car from a guy in Chicago, great town.If you're ever in Miami let me know.
    Folks, drive your car.If Enzo Ferrari were alive today and saw all these garage queens, he'd take those cars away from you guys who don't use them and give them to someone who would.
     
  22. 355fiorano

    355fiorano Formula Junior

    Oct 21, 2003
    773
    London
    Full Name:
    Philip
    To be honest, when I think about it I don't think that the depreciation is the issue of why these cars get driven less. If you double your mileage from 3k to 6k a year you lose what in absolute terms over 3 years ... and extra £10k max on a £100k car ! The thing that I think most worries us isn't the resale value but the potential illiquidity if the asset. Everybody is looking for the low mileage example, and is willing to pay the premium. By driving the car more, you are just resticting the potential buyers that would look at it. Agreed that f-cars are up to the task of high mileages but I am willing to bet that most of us would shell out the premium for a low mileage car than a higher one.

    I bought my '85 308 in 97 from a collector in switzerland. It had done about 26,000 kms since new. I use is weekly and it now has 57,000 km. Its been the most reliable car with no faults to speak of. In fact today it is as good as the day I bought it. Had it had this mileage then however, I am sure I would have turned it down because I wanted to get the best I could aford and limit any potential risks of a higher mileage car. Similar case with the 355 (which I only bought a couple of months ago). I started looking over 18 months ago. I passed on a few opportunities and I again would not look for high mileages. I ended up getting one with 12,000 miles which to be frank is even less mileage than I was looking for and was more expensive than I thought I could stretech to (isn't that the case always !). Now however I have peace of mind. I am am sure than when it has 30,000 miles it will be just as good but again I would not have bought it with that now.

    My point is this. We are the market. From an owner perspective we know our cars, we service them, take care of them and are sure that they would be good for double and tripple their current miles. As a buyer however we don't know that, of other peoples cars, and when we come to buy, depresiation could pale into insignificance if the car is faulty or has a bad history and keeps breaking down ... what with £2000 for an oil change and a filter on a routine serive the downside can be huge !

    Philip
     

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