Mondial T overheating - I'm at a loss of why... | FerrariChat

Mondial T overheating - I'm at a loss of why...

Discussion in 'Mondial' started by Peter, May 10, 2024.

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  1. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Dec 21, 2000
    6,440
    B.C., Canada
    So this all started quite some time ago when I replaced the original, rusted-out expansion tank and I've had nothing but problems since.

    I went to change it out and all I did was pull the two hoses off the bottom - the main feed line which goes to the back of the water pump housing and the smaller ID air bleed line that comes from the cross-over piece that joins the two cylinder heads. There may have been 2 to 3 liters of coolant that spilled out which I thought was no big deal, I'll just top it off.

    No matter what I've done, after a period of idling, or a short drive around my neighborhood, will eventually over heat. I have always confirmed operation of the gauge on the dash by taking laser gun readings at various points on the engine and any other component carrying coolant (lines, pipes, radiator, etc). I've seen temps as high as 230+*F.

    I have tried all different ways of bleeding the system (jacking the car up at different angles, pressuring the system, drawing a vacuum, etc). I have flushed out multiple times, pulled the radiator and cleaned/flushed out.

    I even went as far as doing a major-major service (which was a good thing because the timing and oil chain tensioner guides were completely worn out, plus it had the original needle bearing for the top timing chain sprocket), because I figured maybe the water pump was worn out (it wasn't).

    I confirmed using my borescope that the block, heads, various coolant galleries are NOT blocked.

    Somehow, air is getting trapped inside and it's preventing proper coolant flow.

    I'm at the point of giving up.

    Is there any other method of how to fill this system up and NOT trap any air in it?

    I have NEVER had this issue with my 308. That car is rock-solid with temps and it's NEVER overheated. It's stupid-simple to fill and bleed. I don't know what I'm doing wrong with this Mondial...
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  2. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
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    Apr 25, 2010
    2,971
    Central Florida
    #2 Alden, May 11, 2024
    Last edited: May 11, 2024
    Here are my initial thoughts:

    Are your cooling fans coming on at the proper temperature? If not, you could have a bad relay, fuse, or sensor at the bottom of the radiator, cheap and easy to replace. (My fans come on at approximately 195° f) The only time my car has ever overheated is when these fans were not working properly.

    Have you bled the air from the system with the bleed valve at the top of the radiator?

    On my 3.2, the proper fill level is about 2 inches below the neck of the expansion tank, my car will purge any excess fluid above this mark.
    Alden
     
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  3. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,776
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Peter,

    Dump the coolant, get an Airlift kit, draw a vacuum while the heater valve is open to max, wait 15 minutes to see if the coolant leaks, suck in 3 gallons of coolant, give it an inch of space below the coolant cap. Make sure you bought the correct coolant cap.

    If the vacuum is not holding, fill the system with coolant anyway, get a coolant system tester, pressurize it to 15 psi, find the leak, plug it, refill, cap. It's been my experience that coolant hoses on Ferrari need their clamps king-kong tight. Much tighter than I am used to with other cars, but it is what it is.

    You have done too many things to an old system. It's not what you repaired, it's something else that needed attention and you have given it a chance to speak up.
     
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  4. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
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    Apr 25, 2010
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    #4 Alden, May 11, 2024
    Last edited: May 11, 2024
    Once you get it sorted:
    The other advice I got was to use a .9 ATM cap so the cap blows before you blow a hose that is difficult to access and expensive to replace! I have had one on mine for 10 years, works great!
     
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  5. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    Dec 21, 2000
    6,440
    B.C., Canada
    Yes the fans are turning on and I've spliced into the circuit a manual switch to turn the fans on permanently for an emergency, which I've had to do when the temps climbed up.

    I have bled the system at the rad and the thermostat housing numerous times. I have added additional bleeder valves on the heater core line and also at the return neck of the water pump housing, just to help.

    That fill level mark is the same with many of these cars from this era (6cm to be exact). It's the same with my 308.
     
  6. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    Dec 21, 2000
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    I have pulled vacuum before I did all of this work. At most 25 to 30" of mercury which is pretty much the max. I've also pressurized the system too with no VISIBLE leaks.

    I've tightened the clamps quite tightly. Norma clamps are superior to regular worm-gear types, but I'm always hesitant to go killer tight. Especially the smaller ID ones. Those formed threads are only so stout that they too can strip. Ball-park torque figure I need to shoot for?

    I got docked concours points for having a 1.1 bar cap, so I switched out to the stock 0.9 bar. There isn't much difference between the two and I would expect that the 0.9 would be sufficient.

    Like I said, this car was perfect before I replaced this tank. It appears my method of filling always introduces air. You mention: "suck in 3 gallons of coolant". Do you always pour coolant into your Ferraris with a vacuum system? I always POUR coolant into my GT4. No vacuum, no problems.
     
  7. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    Yes, I got knocked concours points for having a 1.1 bar cap, so I switched out to the correct OEM 0.9 cap.

    I already replaced the most difficult hose on this engine (the 20mm ID one behind the water pump housing). She's now tight and leak free.
     
  8. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
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    Apr 25, 2010
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  9. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    No, that's the thing, when the fans come on, they do NOT cool the system down. At best, they may keep temperatures held, but will not bring it down.

    I put my borescope into the block and the coolant galleries of the heads as deep as I could reach with it and I saw nothing in there. Same thing with the radiator. The long hoses down the middle of the car were wide open, but I did replace them because, like most items on this car, were original (you see that Alfagomma hose in my photo. Very reasonably priced and is the exact size and spec vs. the pricey original hose T352AA157X12.6 Alfagomma by Kuriyama | Radiator Hose | Black | 1-9/16" — HoseWarehouse ).
     
  10. Alden

    Alden F1 Rookie
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    If your fans don't cool things down then you have a circulation problem in your cooling system, you have a blockage. But it sounds like your fans keep the temperatures from going up any further than they already are. So they're working, but something else isn't.
    Alden
     
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  11. Subito Grigio

    Subito Grigio Formula Junior

    Jun 2, 2009
    355
    Of course, one more thing to check: Look for scorched yellow, brown or black (burned) white plastic connectors anywhere around fuse box. I know the fans work when you are looking, but …


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
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  12. afterburner

    afterburner F1 Rookie
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    Jun 20, 2008
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    Hong Kong
    I know you didn't change or work on the thermostat but it seems to me you haven't looked into that area yet.
    I did have a new aftermarket thermostat come apart (it lost a rubber seal the original design does not have) and block the water passages, plus not really directing the water to the rad. The car heated up quite quickly and solidly. Of course the fans were on but to no effect as the coolant didn't really circulate through the rad.
     
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  13. Wingnut

    Wingnut Karting

    Feb 11, 2005
    135
    Corolla, NC
    Peter
    My 1990 Mondial t was overheating some years ago. My mechanic found that the previous owner had some work done before selling, and found that the coolant hoses were reattached incorrectly. You might double check. It was a simple fix.
     
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  14. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
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    Frankly, I don't think that Peter would make this kind of mistakes.
     
  15. theunissenguido

    theunissenguido Formula 3
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    Jan 21, 2004
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    Guido
    Take out the thermostat and see if there is any difference in temperature going up.
     
  16. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    Dec 21, 2000
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    I’m on my 3rd TStat and the one in the car is the last OEM Behr 82*C that I could find. I tested every one in a pot of boiling water on my stove and checked opening and closing points. I also made sure it extended the correct length to block off the lower port in the housing.
     
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  17. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
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    Dec 21, 2000
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    I followed my pictures and the parts catalog. The pipes can’t really be put in wrong because of the specific tight bends and the tight areas they fit into.
     
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