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Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by AEHaas, Jan 21, 2007.

  1. Maniak

    Maniak Rookie

    Jan 2, 2009
    47
    Amsterdam
    Full Name:
    Marc
    Hello, I'm new to FerrariChat and like to find out about these great machines Enzo's created..!

    @AEHaas,

    Maybe you would like to comment on my views at this quote,
    The discussion is about getting grip on life of an engine by carefully selecting oil. I would like to know those things with expensive Ferrari's and thank you for sharing with us.
    About the BMW, when an oil is recommended for their M-power engines they are aware of the properties it should meet when advising so. Why don't they? Then this means they say one should put in this engine a 60 SAE graded oil. The grade of oil following SAE constitutes a range of fluid and the individual manufacturer could be on the lower or as well on the higher side of the [SAE] range. So, if one has a solid engine there is an oil thickness a customer can use to suit his needs. If one thinks about rapid wear as a design feature, you would say high piston speed or actually piston acceleration will bear heavy load on engine parts. But isn't it true that one might just need a 'thicker' oil because under heavy load a connecting rod also suffers side load, and without proper cooling by (no) bearing material which, in turn, entails to higher stress on local engine parts and therefore customers should pour in the high grade oil and thus justify an expensive oil?
     
  2. procure95

    procure95 Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
    585
    PA, USA
    Full Name:
    Giovanni (John)
    #52 procure95, Jan 3, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2009

    not enough data for a formula
     
  3. procure95

    procure95 Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
    585
    PA, USA
    Full Name:
    Giovanni (John)
    no and i wouldn't recommend it
     
  4. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,350
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    You never need a "thicker" oil just because of the load. Formula 1 cars run very thin oils as 5 or 10 grade and have been used in two races last year so they must be as good as new after one race. This year they must be used for three races.

    My articles show viscosities to demonstrate a point and are not equations.

    RLI oils are being used in increasingly severe conditions and analysis have shown good wear characteristics, better than other top oils I have seen in the same conditions.

    Here is a link:
    http://www.renewablelube.com/

    aehaas
     
  5. 9krpmrx8

    9krpmrx8 Rookie

    Jul 20, 2009
    2
    San Antonio, Texas
    Full Name:
    Scott Redmond
    This is for the Doctor and all others who would like to comment. I thank you for your time!! I look forward to contributing to this site if I can.

    I am located and in San Antonio, Texas and my fun car is a Mazda RX-8 GT 6 speed with a Renesis 1.3L rotary engine. It mainly sees highway miles (family lives a few hours away) with a few track days a year in the 100+ degree weather.

    I am currently having my third engine installed in less than 75,000 miles. There have been a large number (thousands) of engine failures in the hotter states that supposedly are related to the high temperatures and an insufficient amount oil being injected into the combustion chamber by the cars ECU. Mazda has extended the engine warranty to 8 years or 100k and a flash was released for the ECU that supposedly increased the volume of oil being injected. This flash to the ECU has not worked as many of people have had multiple engine replacements despite meticulous maintenance.

    My first engine that did not have the correct flash ran Mobil 1 Synthetic 5W-20, had oil changes every 3k on the dot, and failed showing low compression at just 22,000 miles. Mazda replaced it and gave us(changed the owners manual as well) a notice stating that synthetic oil is not recommended in rotary engines.

    In My second engine I ran 10W30 (higher grade was recommended by several rotary builders) Castrol GTX, had oil changes every 3k on the dot and failed showing low compression after 72,000 miles. My driving distance, style, etc. never changed.

    My third engine is installed and I would like your input on the use of oil in this engine to see if I can finally address why these engines fail prematurely . Keep in mind that traditionally rotary owners have always “premixed” (added 2 stroke oil to each tank of gas for additional lubrication) but this new Renesis was supposed to eliminate the need for that with its oil injection system. Also, for 2009 Mazda added and additional oil injector to the Renesis II and relocated the oil filter.

    I read your article on ferrarichat and did some other research and I think that running a 0W-20 and premixing the gasoline using a fully synthetic 2 stroke oil would be my best bet for making this engine last. I understand there could many reasons these engines are failing but the consensus from the Rotary community is that the recommended 5W-20 Dino oil is just insufficient in hotter weather and they actually recommend running a 15W-40 oil.

    After reading your article I think that is just wrong and I would appreciate any input you have. Thanks again for your time and if you do respond I totally understand as this is a random and time consuming request.

    Very Respectfully,


    Scott M. Redmond
     
  6. Easyrider7467

    Easyrider7467 Formula Junior

    Nov 3, 2005
    966
    Northen N.J.
    Full Name:
    John


    Yes, Thanks Doctor for the knowledge. It is and always is GREATLY Appreciated...
     
  7. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,350
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    There are too many variables in those engines and there has been trouble with every oil used. I would stick with the factory suggestions as they have the largest data base to use for failure analysis.

    aehaas
     
  8. 9krpmrx8

    9krpmrx8 Rookie

    Jul 20, 2009
    2
    San Antonio, Texas
    Full Name:
    Scott Redmond
    Thank you for the response!!! Its an ongoing issue and your article has been very good food for thought. Much appreciated.
     
  9. rizzo308

    rizzo308 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Sep 12, 2004
    2,022
    Perth, Australia
    Full Name:
    riggio
    what would be best oil for running in older engines 308's ........... also what iol to use on rebuilt 308 engines with modern pistons
     
  10. Modulo

    Modulo Rookie

    Aug 19, 2009
    1
    Two quick points I take issue with:
    Theoretically, yes, but this isn't necessarily true. Analysis of 0W30 vs. 10W30 Mobil1 oils used in S2000's showed that the 10W30 kept higher viscosity levels at temp over time than the 0W30. Tracked S2000's prefer 10W30 to 0W30.

    Here's a funny one:
    I don't know what the valve clearance specs are for a Murcielago, but I bet they're not anything like 0.040"!

    But *this* is *priceless*:
    Do you really think it is more important to "get every speck of the Shell oil out of there" than to have the oil system remain primed so that the engine didn't have to endure 10 seconds (!) of operation with little/no oil pressure?!

    Good God, man! For the sake of your car, *please* don't ever do that again. If you *must* totally purge the oil (or after work in which oil galleys/coolers/etc. may go dry), figure a way to prime the oil passages before starting the engine.

    You can overthink the oil subject. You can outguess yourself trying to do what's best for the car. But in this case and most others, IMO yer better off doing "normal" oil changes with the viscosity range recommended by the manufacturer.

    One man's opinion!
     
  11. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,105
    That would be me.

    I have attached (four every ones amusement) two images taken from underneith the F355 engine in my car. Why we dropped the pan will remain a mystery for now. What I can say about these images is that 1) its a 1995 F355 engine with the bronze valve guides, 2) it has 4,200 miles on road race tracks when the picture was taken, and just under 50,000 total miles, 3) the oil was changed after each race weekend, 4) a variety of oils were tested over a years time (more here later) several of which were as thin as 0W-30.

    From this end of the engine, there is no visible wear, including on the rod bearings. In the second image, you can see lettering (punch marks) on the undersides of the pistons if you look closely.

    The race track were almost all in Texas, most of the time the ambient temperatures were well into the 100s, several tests in a row were at 103dF. Yes, kiddies, its hot down here. The car rides on max-performance street tires, and I need ot use Ferrodo DS2500 brakes to take the heat (pad fade on normal Ferrari pads). With this arrangement I am typically within 2 seconds of the lap record on these tracks for 3200 pound 400 HP cars. That is, I'm not taking it easy.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    On a typical day at the track (100dF temperatures) the water temperature reaches 220dF and the oil temperatures reach about 280dF (TWS; at the slightly slower more power hungry MSR Cresson 290dF). Here is where it starts to get interesting.

    15W-50 and 20W-50 oils run 290-295dF
    5W-40 and 10W-40 oils run 280-285dF
    0W-30 and 5W-30 oils run 277-282dF

    I remind everyone that the above images were taken after all these tests were run, and that no trace of wear was found even on the rod and main bearings. My Ferrari mechanic (and good friend) continues to recommend thicker oils for his customers who race their Ferraris. I do not. However, My recommendations come with a caveat--you have to have BOTH oil temperature and oil pressure gauges in order to test whether a thin oil is safe to race. And secondly, you have to watch them AND listen to the engine.

    One of the above tests was performed at a 2 session track day. Track goes green at 9:00 and goes red at 11:30, goes green at 1:30 and goes red at 4:00. In one of these sessions (with 5W-40 oil) I ran an entire tank of gasoline (72 minutes) in a single stint. The water temp, oil temperatures and oil pressures were stable from about minute 3 through the whole session--but it was only 101dF that day.

    The only real reason I run 5W-40 oil in my car today, is that there is a little oil consumption with the 0W-30 or 5W-30 oils so I have to watch the sump. Whereas with the 5W-40 oils, I can go (and have) thousands and thousands of miles with the level on the dip stick never wavering. I would run 0W-30 in this car if I never wanted to go to the track. I would run 5W-30 at the track if I could find one with an HTHS number above 3.6.

    The car, today, has 60K miles on it, almost 5,000 track miles on it, has leakdown numbers around 3%-4%, and still sounds like new (rattling bypass valve notwithstanding).

    If you have both oil temp and oil pressure gauges, you can use the temp gauge to tell you which oil is optimally lubricating your engine. Under a high load condition, the oil with the lower temperature is lubricating your engine better. I am a firm believer in this. And I have the pictures to prove it (above).

    Now the one thinig that I do do that is different, is that I let the engine oil come up to temperature before using any revs above 3,000--even if this means sitting in the pits while others are doing laps. Perhaps this is why my bronze valve guides are still in operating condition--even though this particular engine has accumulated at least 20 minutes above red line (sumation of frctions of a second each event).

    I don't know why BMW specifies such a thick oil for their M3s--i really don't. Perhaps it would be better if they specified how hot one is allowed to run the oil.

    For the F355, the correct oil at normal operating condition is 12-ish cSt but equally importantly, when running on a track the number to look for is the HTHS number. Look for something right at 4.0 or above 3.7, anything higher is unnecessary in my opinion. There are oils out there that are thin enough for optimal around town performance and still suitable for the track.
     
  12. LightGuy

    LightGuy Two Time F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Oct 4, 2004
    27,986
    Texas
    Full Name:
    David
    WOW!

    As a side note we went to test drive a 2010 Prius (Stop right now, I know what your thinking; dont go there ;) ) at it specifies 0W-20.
    I put 0W-XX in everything if I can get it. Auto supply stores are ships in that change of direction is slow.
     
  13. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,105
    In order to clear up any confusion or overreading my intention, here, if you are going to run a lower weight oil on the track, you need a firm understanding on hot you can run that oil and not see excessive engine wear.

    15W-50 and 20W-50 oils run 290-295dF--these oils are safe into the 320dF range (HTHS>4.5)
    5W-40 and 10W-40 oils run 280-285dF--these oils are safe upto to the 305dF range (HTHS=4.0)
    0W-30 and 5W-30 oils run 277-282dF--these oils are safe up to the 285dF range (HTHS=3.6)

    In effect, the 0W30 oil is running greater than 4.0 cSt at 285 dF which is the same viscosity of the 5W-40 oil at 305dF.

    10W-40s should be fine for all non actual race conditions (even in blistering heat) HPDEs included. If you are ever in a situation where you will press on regardless of the engine oil temperature, or you have no idea what the engine oil temps will be, then by all means use a heavy engine oil and be safe. I watch my gauges while HPDEing.

    Since my (well maintained) F355 does not see temperatures above 285dF even when driving in 103dF ambient temperatures, I consider myself to be right on the line with respect to 5W-30 weight oils for track use. IF I could find one with an HTHS number of 3.8 I would be using it--especially if I could also get a 40dF viscosity less than 80 cSt.

    {All oils mentioned in either post are pure synthetics from major suppliers, like RedLine, AmsOil, Mobil 1; and were selected by looking at the data sheets to find the HTHS numbers along with the 40dF and 212dF viscosities.} I am currently running M1 Turbo Diesel 5W-40 for its ZDDP content.
     
  14. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Feb 24, 2006
    12,472
    Cerritos, CA.
    Full Name:
    Mike
    #64 miketuason, Sep 10, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009
  15. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,105
    Yes, but:

    http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=4&pcid=21

    is a better oil for most applications. Why? Mainly because its thinner at startup 70 cSt rather tna 79.7 cSt, thinner at operating conditions 10 cSt rather than 13.7, but thicker under heavy stress conditions (HTHS) 3.8 versus 3.7.

    I have run AMSOil 5W-40 in my F355B at TWS in summertime heat, it performed just fine.
    I have run RedLine 10W-30 in my F355B at TWS in summertime heat, it performed just fine.
     
  16. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Feb 24, 2006
    12,472
    Cerritos, CA.
    Full Name:
    Mike
    Thanks so much Mitch, seems like either oil are good however, I spoke to the Amsoil rep about the European 5W-40 and he said that this oil are design for the newer model cars and he doesn't know or could not recommend a type of amsoil. That leaves Redline.
    My QV has 75,000 miles. Being a Southern Cal. resident what do you recommend? Thanks.
     
  17. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,105
    If you watch the oil temperature gauge and it never gets above 285dF (260dF for the paranoid) then use the thinner Redline oil. Otherwise, just use a premium synthetic in 0W-40, 5W-40, or 10W-40 formulations.

    If you want to get yourself edumacated about this visit "bob is the oil guy" web site and also look up the almost-chosen oil and download the product literatures sheet. This will tell you the HTHS number and the ZDDP level (look for phosporous at or above 0.1%).

    I, personally, don't buy oil that does not specify the phosporous level and the HTHS viscosity.
     
  18. gcmerak

    gcmerak Formula 3

    Mar 17, 2008
    1,636
    Engine Bay, Georgia
    Full Name:
    George C.
    As of 4/7/09 Mobil 1 product information list regarding it's M1 oils is as follows: 0W-40 & 5W-50 Nominal Phosphorus Level PPM -1000, Nominal Zinc Level PPM - 1100 and 15W-50 Nominal Phosphorus Level PPM -1200 & Nominal Zinc Level PPM- 1300.

    For most of us non-racers general driving will bring temps into the 190-200 F degree range. If you are not regularly redlining your engine and changing your oil every 3000-4000 miles or im my case every 12 months, these oils should exceed any demands you may put on them.

    Ciao,
    George
     
  19. stolen3000gt

    stolen3000gt Rookie

    Nov 10, 2009
    2
    I also wanted to thank you for article, it was very informative. I do have a question though. You mention in your article...
    Why the need to change, and how can you (or someone with a sports car that is not a Ferrari) tell which to use at what mileage? I have a twin turbo with 64k miles that I drive short distances pretty frequently in very seasonal weather. I want to switch to synthetic, but want the best for my car.
     
  20. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,350
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    As the engine wears (normally) eventually clearances will increase and the pressures will fall too low for a given grade of oil. Then, based on the temperatures and pressures a thicker oil may be needed. It may not actually occur for hundreds of thousands of miles if the car is well cared for.

    Synthetic is not necessarily better. I actually like synthetic blends better for "normal" cars as my Expedition. One of my favorites is Motorcraft 5W-20 semi synthetic blend oil.


    aehaas
     
  21. stolen3000gt

    stolen3000gt Rookie

    Nov 10, 2009
    2
    Thanks for the quick response. What is your opinion about using oil flush before doing the switch?
     
  22. miketuason

    miketuason F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Feb 24, 2006
    12,472
    Cerritos, CA.
    Full Name:
    Mike
  23. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    Hi Mike,

    I am leaning toward the redline 5-50 as well. 40 wt does not hold 70 pounds oil pressure on the track. All of this talk about thin oil is great as long as you can maintain required pressures, (10 psi/1k rpm sounds about right). I have tried 0-20, 0-30,0-40 Mobile 1 and 5-50 Syntek and the pressures aren't even close, except the 5-50 syntek.
    The Redline looks like it will have a "viscosity" of 20.5 at 100 C but i cannot find the ZDDP ratings for either oils.
    I noticed that Rifledriver likes the redline oils WITH a zddp additive, (can't find the post just now).

    Any Help???
    chris
     
  24. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    6,105
    What car? what oil temperatures?

    My 1995 F355B runs 285dF oil temps with 10W-40 oil at TWS and MSR (Cresson and Bonney) in the midst of texas summers (103dF ambient) for stnts as long as 72 minutes. The oil pressure gauge reads 85 PSI the whole time (anything over 1900 RPMs.)
     
  25. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
    Full Name:
    chris morse
    #75 chrismorse, Jan 16, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
    Hi Mitch,

    77 308, 250 oil temp and roughly 55 60 psi at 7K , (less pressure with lower rpms), with 5-50 Syntek, ambient 85-100 F.

    Water temp 235, nw thermostat and pressure sending unit. new coolant temp sender with major 12 months ago.

    On my next track day, i will be running a few infrared tests to confirm actual oil and water temps.

    Any idea what the Zddp level is in the 5-50???

    thanks,
    chris
     

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