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New clutch issue

Discussion in 'Boxers/TR/M' started by lear60man, Oct 24, 2014.

  1. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
    1,801
    Los Angeles
    Full Name:
    Christian
    I got everything put back together and bled the clutch (nasty black fluid).

    Now the clutch pedal sticks to the floor momentarily. When rebuilding the Thrust Bearing Support, I ordered all new sealing rings. I believe that my car was missing part #22 (Sealing ring that fits onto the Bushing Support Flange (#17)). I did install Part #22 as it came with my kit. While putting the bearing assembly back together, I did notice the springs (part 27 X 2) did not 'snap' the bearing assembly back into place. But rather gently pushed it back to the extended position.

    Shamaile rote in another thread "According to Gabe ( lead F tech Central Florida Ferrari ) leave the outer dust seal off the actuator. It becomes hard and makes the clutch pedal stick to the floor."

    Is this the seal #22?

    This is how I bled the clutch: my helper pressed in the clutch and held it in. I opened up the bleed valve and closed it. He released the clutch pedal. Repeat about 10 times until clear fluid came out.

    Im thinking:

    1- Weak springs (Parts 27)
    2- Need to bleed the clutch more
    3- Remove seal #22.

    Lastly, bearing #14, does this need any type of lubrication (bearing grease) or is it lubricated by the gear oil?

    Thoughts?

    Thanks.

    PS I also had 2 of the Exhaust Analyzing Pipes snapped off at the base of the precat bung. I found a local Hot Rod shop who are going to rebuild two for them for $100.
     
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  3. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,103
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    Brian Crall
    #2 Rifledriver, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
    22 is one of the throw out bearing seals. If that was missing all the hydraulic fluid would be on the floor.

    I have never ever needed to modify or leave parts out to make one of these clutches work perfectly.


    Is this a new or rebuilt clutch? If new was the bag of new shims used?


    Pedal sticks to the floor for two reasons. One is if it has a lot of air in the hydraulics. The other is if the clutch is incorrectly shimmed.


    The springs often do not have the ability to over come the drag of the seals. But if set up correctly the spring of the clutch will take care of putting the TO bearing back where it belongs. If the clutch pack is set up incorrectly the pressure plate spring will be pushed over center or at least to a point of equilibrium and it cannot reengauge and push the bearing back. If it is at or near that point it will be far worse when running at high RPM because centrifugal force will add to the problem of the spring returning to the at rest position.

    I do not install rebuilt TR clutches because I have not seen a rebuilder that was able to source the correct thickness facing material. When that happens it can't be shimmed to provide both the correct clamping force and a useable travel of the pressure plate.
     
  4. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
    1,801
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    Christian
    Thanks Brian.

    I sent the entire clutch unit to Clutch Masters in Rialto. They relined the clutch and resurfaced the fly wheel and pressure plate. By shims are you referring to part #11 (spacers)?

    The depth of Kevlar is about 3mm on each face. Total thickness is aprox 9mm per plate.

    I will have my wife help to bleed the clutch again tonight. I did press the clutch pedal by accident while the clutch line was not attached to the clutch housing thus dumping a fair amount on the floor. Son and I bleed it about 8 times until clear fluid came out. I guess there could still be air in the line.
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    #4 Rifledriver, Oct 24, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2014
    Yes, #11.

    Did the clutch rebuilder supply them?

    An unloaded disc should be about 8.2 mm. Too thick a disc will compress the spring too much and create that problem.

    I hope it is just a bleeding problem.


    This clutch was not a great design. It works fine if everything is right but it has very little tolerance for anything being out of spec.
     
  6. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,103
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    As far as bleeding the clutch goes, once you get it to the point of not sticking to the floor but still don't have a great pedal, just pump it very rapidly about 10 or 20 times. It will actually put the air uphill back to the reservoir. I used to beat my brains in getting a good pedal on some cars until I figured that out. Seems to work on TRs but not much else for some reason.
     
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  8. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
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    I believe they reused my spacers.

    Air in the slave cylinder? How to bleed it?
     
  9. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    27,103
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    Just at the bleeder. Try bleeding the master first. Stuff rags under it to soak up the fluid. Crack the fitting loose and have a helper push the pedal slowly ALL the way to the floor, then close the fitting, pull the pedal back up, crack the fitting and so on for 5 or 6 times. Clean the fluid mess then go to the slave bleed fitting. Crack it open, push the pedal all the way, close the bleeder, pull the pedal up, open the bleeder etc. Once you get a good enough pedal that it doesn't stick down my other method should work.

    Make sure in the process that the fitting on the master is getting closed before the pedal comes back up or you will be just putting more air in. The bleeder at the back can be just pumped continuously using a bleeder bottle but those can be a little fussy to bleed and I think closing the bleeder every time works a little better.

    If you get to the point that you have good normal feeling resistance and the pedal sticks you have a problem.
     
  10. curtisc63

    curtisc63 Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Dec 13, 2005
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    Brian - I just want to take a minute and offer a collective THANK YOU from the TR community. Your contributions here are very much appreciated!

    Curtis
     
  11. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
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    I agree 100%. Next time im in Nor cal or Austin, Ill take you for dinner or shooting, your choice.

    Well no luck. I bled it till the cows came home. I have no other choice but to disassemble the darn thing.

    I want to put this extra sealing ring question to bed. It shows up in the exploded view (part #22), but does not show up in the cross section of the clutch.

    I dont know how to cut and paste from the WSM but the link below shows the cross section in post 8. As you can see, it lists the two internal sealing rings......but part 22 is not shown in the diagram. The way that it sits on the bushing support flange it appears to cover the two hydraulic holes. I can actually hear hydraulic fluid in the clutch making a sucking sound when the pedal is released. Either way I need to take everything apart and do some measuring and thinking.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/boxers-tr-m/222510-clutch-pedal-goes-floor.html

    I just realized....I think I used proper terminology for the first time in my posts.
     
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  13. godabitibi

    godabitibi F1 Veteran

    Jan 11, 2012
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    Make sure to read the WSM procédures to determine the shim thickness Brian described.
     
  14. jm3

    jm3 F1 Rookie

    Oct 3, 2002
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    Black brake fluid can often mean someone topped up the clutch master with motor oil. You may need a new master and/ or slave cylinder.
     
  15. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    It gets really black in the TR's. I have always assumed that somehow the black dusty clutch debris migrates into the fluid somehow.
     
  16. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    In the parts book exploded diagram, the table called "clutch and controls" table 27 in the 87 book and table 27 and 28 in the 90 book part #22 is the large slave cylinder seal. Part 21 is the small slave cylinder seal. As I said, without that fluid ends up on the floor.


    Do not take the clutch apart. After the bell housing is off take a picture showing the pressure plate fingers from an oblique angle, 70 degrees or so from the crank axis. I want to see the pressure plate spring finger angularity.
     
  17. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    If the clutch reliner did as I suspected and used American standard clutch lining material it is too thick and no amount of shimming will ever make it work correctly. TR discs are thin and need to be for the designed in clutch geometry to work correctly. Multi disc clutches are typically that way and in my experience clutch rebuilders just don't get it.
     
  18. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
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    JM3, no motor oil in my clutch/brake fluid system. The black fluid that I bleed out was brake fluid (smell-touch test).

    Thanks Brian, will do. Regarding the Large Slave Cylinder Seal....there is a an angled bevel on the inner lip that matches the angle of the Support Flange. I installed it so that the angles touched. Below is a picture of one of the clutch disks I took the other day during assembly. You can see the thickness and a 'serial number' on the Kevlar. Ill take the oblique angle picture hopefully later today.

    Clutch disk Material:
    [​IMG]

    Ill be saddened if the clutch came out wrong as Clutch Masters has been recommended many times in the TR section. But they could have switched Kevlar suppliers or as you have mentioned, every TR is special and can be finicky.

    Christian.
     
  19. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Well it looks too thick but photos can be deceiving. The acceptable thickness range is, I guess you could get away with 8.5 but it is supposed to be 8.2 down to the wear limit of 7.

    I too have taken recommendations a few times on getting them relined and have wasted a great deal of money in the process to relearn the same lesson. I am left with the same conclusion as a number of other areas. Some people have very different standards of "Good" or "acceptable" as I. I never cease to be amazed at what some will jury rig together.
     
  20. godabitibi

    godabitibi F1 Veteran

    Jan 11, 2012
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    Brian can it be corrected by machining down the intermediate plate?
     
  21. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    #18 Rifledriver, Oct 25, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
    I suppose it could but I personally would prefer using the correct thickness linings. Assuming this is the problem naturally. They have to be available somewhere, possibly the UK where they are made.

    I really don't get it though. I have taken these clutches to shops with great references, given them the specs, shown them the issue, explained the entire situation and supplied photo copies of the specs from the book and it still comes out this way. I have thousands of dollars invested of time and money with zero success and I am not alone. I had one guy that everyone swore was Gods gift to the clutch tell me, "that's the way I do it. That's the way I have always done it. Put it in the car and it will be fine!". Yea, all except the part about it not working. I can line up other Ferrari shop owners from around the country with exactly the same stories to tell.

    There was a thread here about a year or two ago of a guy who went through all the same grief on a clutch he had installed. I knew the shop and I knew exactly what the outcome would be as soon as he identified the shop and that is was a rebuilt clutch.

    I know where to get parts that fit, work and I can stand behind and that is what I do. Trying to save money is a real fast way to go out of business. I cannot afford to go through what you guys go through trying to get something to work.
     
  22. tbakowsky

    tbakowsky F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant

    Sep 18, 2002
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    I don't bother with rebuild anything, unless it's done by the manufacture themselves.

    Ap racing for the BB and TR's, or I'm not doing the job. I have tried all the rebuilders and have never had a clutch work as well as a new unit. Either it engages way to early, or way to high, or it chatters so badly your fillings fall out. Do a job twice or even three times, works out to me just buying the customer the clutch and installing it for him for free.
     
  23. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Exactly what I tell people, it will cost me less just to do the job correctly for free.
     
  24. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
    1,801
    Los Angeles
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    Christian
    Firstly thanks for the help to all the members here.....I think I got it.

    Here is the picture of the clutch pack installed as requested:

    [​IMG]

    The T/O bearing is making contact with the teeth as there are contact marks on the teeth and new bearing.

    Before I pulled the clutch housing, I put a stethoscope on the housing and had my wife push in the clutch pedal. When it would come off the floor, I could hear a sucking sound, like a pinched off straw. So I pulled off the housing and Clutch Bearing Support. Upon inspecting the #22 Sealing Ring, I noticed that there is a raised lip on one side. I had the raised lip facing towards the front. In this case it perfectly blocks off the two little Hydraulic Ports on the Bushing Support Flange (#17) thus not allowing fluid to return and letting the pedal spring back un-restricted. I flipped it over so now the little lip is facing rearwards and opens up an avenue for the fluid to return.

    Please excuse my crude drawing but a picture is worth a thousand words:
    [​IMG]

    I buttoned up the housing, topped off the fluids and had the wife help me bleed the clutch. At about 6 bleeding cycles, I was getting less and less air. At about 8-10 cycles, the clutch pedal was popping off the floor like normal. I tightened up the bleed port and gave it 10 more cycles to check for leaks at the housing and master cylinder.

    I dont feel too bad as the WSM visual is poor at best. I had a 50/50 chance....and lost.

    If my findings are in error and I have the #22 seal in wrong, please advise as I havent put the exhaust back on yet. But for now, the clutch pedal tension is nice and firm.

    Im going to let it sit overnight and do another check for leaks, then do a short test drive around the block.

    Thanks again.

    Christian (more willpower than brains)
     
  25. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    #22 Rifledriver, Oct 25, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014



    That piece does not go there

    It goes on the front toward the clutch


    22 is a clutch slave seal like I have said all along

    That part is in the wrong place completely. And it is typically only found in TR 512. Leave it out. TR 512 had different seals and it was felt they needed a dust boot. The reason you don't see it in the parts book is because it isn't there. It's in the 512 book.
     
  26. godabitibi

    godabitibi F1 Veteran

    Jan 11, 2012
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    #23 godabitibi, Oct 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  27. lear60man

    lear60man Formula 3

    May 29, 2004
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    #24 lear60man, Oct 25, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2014
    ARRRRRRRRG.

    Now that makes sense. My bag of seals didnt come with part numbers.....back out to the garage.....

    Brian, The seal I have been calling #22 is infact #28 and indicated by the yellow arrow in Godabitidi's picture. So now that Ive got it out and sitting on my desk...Just want to confirm......throw it out? I dont need it?
     
  28. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Tha seal goes as indicated by the yellow arrow. I have never seen one in a TR before. It was only used on the very late cars and the 512's. The 85 to mid 90 cars had no provision for it. I have only seen them used in 512's. After a little research I see they were also used in very late production TR's. 91 TR's were not legal for sale new in California so we don't have that many here and I guess I have never done a clutch on one. If your sleeve has provision for it, use it. If not throw it away.
     

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