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new Sauber

Discussion in 'Other Racing' started by yesod, Jan 12, 2004.

  1. yesod

    yesod Formula Junior

    Nov 2, 2003
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    Keith
    How does everyone think the New Sauber will do? Now that they will have the same engine and gearbox as the Ferraris will be running, do you think they will move up the grid some?
     
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  3. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
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    Here is a picture of the new C23 the big change is a switch back to a single keel design.
     
  4. ianlow32

    ianlow32 Rookie

    Jan 12, 2004
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    yup, it certainly looks very much like the f2003-ga. look at the sidepods and flick ups, and the nose .... all very similar.
     
  5. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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  6. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    No, it will stay or go backwards: It has the same Bridgestone tires.
    :(
     
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  8. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Copying another car, yep that is the way forward NOT.

    If I was Ferrari I would use Sauber as the team to test really radical ideas ... while racing the not so radical ideas. Effectively Ferrari would have a testing ground :)

    I cannot wait to see the new Ferrari, but I expect to be disappointed with a un-innovative looking car that basically is a improved F2002 as the F2003-GA was.

    Gee that Williams is fast, and while we all might think it looks funny, theoretically it sounds like it is the most complete use of the twin keel design yet! If the Williams does not work I think it will spell the end of the twin keel design!

    I actually think it will be a Williams versus McLaren show this year with MS coming in third ... and retiring next year after a disappointing final year that will keep the mouths of the anti-MS's going up and down, saying stupid things like: MS only wins when he is in the best car, etc. ... forgetting about his early years, and also forgetting that Prost, Senna, Clark and just about every good racing driver had the best car for most of their career ... ie. good teams DON'T hirer useless drivers, and bad teams won't keep a good driver for long. The only exception of this was Ferrari who managed to keep MS while they improved their game.

    Pete
     
  9. Maximo_Tifoso

    Maximo_Tifoso Karting

    Jan 8, 2004
    221
    Houston TX
    I don't have a source...but, I heard that the new Sauber has failed the FIA crash test...Again, I cannot confirm..just a rumor for now. I heard it on spanish cable channel.
     
  10. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

    May 31, 2003
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    Here is a quote from Formula1.com

    "Sauber have abandoned their familiar twin-keel design for the C23 in a bid to make the new car stiffer and lighter. However, Rampf admitted that it had failed one of the FIA's mandatory crash tests, which it will have to retake later this month."

    So it is official

    Rob
     
  11. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Didn't the F2003GA fail the crash test originally too?

    Pete
     
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  13. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Pete;

    I am not sure if the F2003-GA failed or not. I do know that they had a few mechanical failures in testing that wadded the car and that delayed the race debut.

    The Mclaren MP4/18 did fail the crash test a few times and that was more than likely why that car did not race.

    Rob
     
  14. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Sauber admits, that their car is nothing radical, but rather traditional and basic (kinda carbon copy of the 2003GA). There is a reason for it: Their brand new wind tunnel just reached completion. So the current Sauber had to be designed and tested without it. So they chose not to go too radical, but bring in the aero improvements as the season progresses while they now start using the tunnel.

    Ferrari uses Sauber at this moment for tire testing and as their backup pool of test drivers. I would also think they use them for gearbox and engine testing. At least before the season gets underway.

    Pete, I second your comment about this year: Mc Laren vs Williams. Ferrari will battle with Renault for 5th.

    As far as the people go who will bash Schue: Well, if you don't know your history, you just make yourself look stupid. I don't care. I have seen what the guy has done so far. You can't eclipse that. Probably never.
     
  15. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

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  16. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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  17. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    What an annoying website that is, all those ads. Anyway.

    Actually I have to say they look fairly different. I mean most F1 cars look the same, so similarity doesn't surprise me. The difference is in the details and e.g. the size of the rear wing, the swooping of the air intake are quite different. Different barge boards. Also differences in cockpit lengths.

    Remember a year ago everybody said Toyota copied the Ferrari? Well, then too I didn't think it was the case. Or just as true as with most F1 cars compared to each other.

    Aerodynamics (Rob help me out here pls) eventually dictate an optimized solution. If you give everybody long enough time, they will all find it and the cars will eventually all look alike.

    Some folks said the Russians copied the American Space Shuttle with Buran. And for the untrained eye that's the case. But when you look at them closely, there are huge differences, which I could point out, but that'd be a bit OT. I bet a similar thing is true for F1. People who know the stuff (not me) could probably tell you a thousand differences between these cars.
     
  18. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Andreas;

    Good eye. in the comparison picture the 2003-GA is how the car was first released last year there had been several changes thru the season.

    One thing i noticed is that the focus points in the two pictures are different. so that throws a lot of the perspective off.

    Rob
     
  19. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Lets look at the nose section first. On the Ferrari this is what was seen at the launch of the car if you notice there is no notch on the end plate like on the Sauber. This notch did show up by the first race for the 2003 GA. What is going on here is the notch acts as a high pressure relief valve for the front wing. This relief will allow some of the drag to be vented off while still allowing for downforce to be created.

    other items that i noticed is the flip up on the end plate on the Sauber is short and steep. This can create extra down force but also extra drag. The Ferrari uses a long flip up with less camber.

    One last item i see is the wing mounts look to be set back on the Sauber compaired to the Ferrari. This does not make sense as the closer to the leading edge of the wing the less drag due to the hole in the air that the leading edge creates.

    Rob
     
  20. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Looking at the cowl area. there are a few visiable differences but a lot is hidden due to the paint work on the Sauber hiding some of the details.

    The Engine cover for the Sauber is not as radicaly sloped down as the Ferrari. Now not having the F2004 to look at it is hard to say what is happening here. It could be due to a simple fact that the 2004 engine is a little larger due to the one engine rule for 04, or that the Sauber design of the airbox is not as efficent as Ferrari's. Now one thing to note here is that some teams did play with a small spine to give the car more side bite in yaw last year so perhaps sauber could be doing the same here it is hard to say without more detailed pictures of the engine cover close up.
     
  21. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    And finaly lets compair side pods.

    Again focus point of the two pictures can make visual compairisons difficult here. One thing to note is that Ferrari when they raced the 2003-GA it used a main barge board and a smaller sub barge board set up not the single one seen here. The one pictured is nore like the one found on the F2002 car. it does look as if the Sauber is using a Saw tooth Vortex Generator on the bottom of there board this year. What this does is create a vortex in the airflow going under the car. if the vortex is placed correctly it will act as a skirt and help keep airflow from bleeding out from under the car to where the rear undertray diffuser can create extra down force.

    One thing i do see is that the lower corners of the side pods are not as rounded as the 2003-GA pods. The rounding of the pods create a form of a channel that will allow the air flow to be directed behind the rear tires and then the rear under tray can create extra down force and force more air towards the lower rear wing element.

    In my opinion Sauber used a lot of the aero concepts that the 2003-Ga has but put there own twist onto them to create there new car. It looks like a 2003-GA copy but close up there is a lot of smaller details that can make or break this car. Once they have there new wind tunnel calibrated and operational, watch for a lot of aero development on the Sauber this year and in 05.

    Rob
     
  22. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Love your comments Rob!

    Please make some more comments once we have seen the 04 Ferrari. I also wouldn't mind some comparisons to other cars like the Mc Laren or the Renault.

    Thanks man!
     
  23. beast

    beast F1 Veteran

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    Andreas;

    You got it I am running 2 computers full time doing CFD comparisons of all of the various Aero tricks and i will post them as soon as i have more info from the results. The problem is i am having to run them on my older computers so it does not tie up my main computer. so that is slowing down computation time.

    I will start on the Mclaren later today and the new Renault is releasd next week, looks like i will be busy for a while :D

    Rob
     

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