Non matching engine on a 330 GTC? Value?

From my perspective as an owner of a very good matching number example:

This has a lot to do with 2 things: the buyer's idea of using the car, and the condition of the car. If the car is in perfect condition, then the average buyer will be one that tends to show the car at concours. In this case, they will mark the car down severely for not having the original engine. The difference could easily be $30k.

OTOH, if you can find someone with an appreciation for the quality of the car, who wants to drive it, you can get a good price for it (as a seller), especially if the car has a good history with club appearances and such.

If the car is of lesser quality, then the difference between original engine and non-original is much less. Let us not forget that a significant number of the people that buy these cars know very little about them. They are not the sort that really know how to check for things or even know about them. In this market it is much easier to shift a car that connaisseurs would sniff at.

A tip from my personal perspective - determine in what camp you are. Given that you have found this section of Ferrarichat, it is my bet that on the long term you would not be happy the engine is not original. So my recommendation is to seek another car. I can understand if you don't care, but then you wouldn't have asked the question, would you?


Onno

 

I think a correct but non-matching engine is only a small deduction at a concours, like 1 point. It's far more important to have your bag of unusable tools, spare tire, and manuals, which is 4 points.

 

Funny - if I had to choose between a car with original engine and no tools, or non-original engine but with tools, it be the former every time.


Onno

 

I suppose I would opt for a numbers-matching car too, but, hypocritically, I can't see that there's much justification for thinking that way. For example, it seems like many 7 figure Bugattis have stories that read like a Frankenstein novel - replica bodies, parts from umpteen different cars, original chassis lost, etc.

I can see the value in not being too strict on non numbers-matching engines for judging purposes. If "usability" is a key talking point behind the IAC/FPA guidelines, why overly punish those whose engines blew up while being used?

As to the 4 points for "accessories", I'll leave that for another thread.

 

I think the original engine issue more comes into play when you sell the car. Same type though non original engine makes no difference while you own the car, but if all the 330GTC's you are looking at have original engines but one... Of course this fellow is going to buy the non original engine car at a discount and he will have to expect to sell it at one as well, a big enough discount it might be worth it.

 

I don't know why the absolutely original engine/matching numbers should be such an issue. If say the engine was replaced by the manufacturer under warranty after it blew up 1000 miles into ownership, why should this car be any cheaper? After all if its still an authentic, same type of engine why should there be a problem? Or say you are restoring a car that has done 150k miles and say, I don't know, the block has become so porous it's just not really such a viable option to keep it and maintain reliability. Why should there be an issue if you put an exact(but much better condition) engine back in.

I just don't understand all this matching number snobbery in classic cars. Completely pedantic really. I think it breeds a bad mentality that makes restorers use blocks that should really be chucked out instead of tarted up and shoved back in the car. That's my opinion at least.....

 

+1. w/ smiles Jimmy

 

Stradman - WELL SAID!!!
I agree completely.

Bob Z.

 

Really? There have been many cases where this "pedantic attitude" has at least put pace to some of the fraudsters out there. There is a reason this attitude exists - these are valuable cars. Something that is completely original doesn't need explaining, something that isn't does.


Onno

 

TRUTH: it shouldn't matter.
REALITY: it does matter.

Life is tough/unfair in the Ferrari world.





Tritone
(TGM330GTCHMN.....)

 

Onno-

I agree. It's does not mean that a non-matching numbers car is not a great car it will simply be worth less. The non-original motor does not take any thing away from the car's other attributes. The 20-30% discount a muscle car or a vintage Ferrari with a non-matching numbers might trade for may actually be welcomed by the few that are not looking at the car as just an investment or want to show the car at a concourse. Than there is the re-stamping of blocks that's been a practice done by restorers as well as Ferrari them self's. I don't understand the concept behind the re-stampingg of blocks. It makes me think of the term "wishful thinking". The car's engine is still not what the car was born with. So originality for some is important and will dictate a higher value, but should not deter one to own one of the non-original cars.

Geno

.

 

I don't think it matters whether we think this makes sense or not. If you are choosing from a selection of similar cars of the same type whether it be at a concours or on sale you note the differences and add or subtract points or dollars accordingly. It's just that simple. If you are in a marque world where there are not a lot of similar cars to to choose from by necessity that metric goes out the window.

 

Yes I know what the reality is. And I know no amount of me or anyone screaming will ever change this narrow minded mentality which is called the market. However it still does not make it right.

Who the Fxxk decided that the engine and the chassis are the only thing that has to be original anyway?? If you think about it is downright stupid. If a 50 year old car was burnt up in a fire 30-40 years ago(that tid bit of history say was lost), and then provided the chassis and the engine are still the original ones, you then restore the car with parts and bits afterwards and make it look concours, does it, and should it, then make that car more expensive than say an otherwise original, concours looking car that just happened to change engine because the engine blew? People are fooling themselves really. Go figure as they say....

 

Again, you are talking about intrinsic value, why is one piece of art worth more then another or why is one car worth more then another, none of these things can be explained by what makes sense and any argument about that is specious.

 

10-15% for a non-matching number motor that is the correct type. More for an incorrect type motor.

 

It took 16 posts to get a straightforward answer to the question....!

 

I spent a lot of time in the early 60s at S&A automotive in Sepulveda,CA home to the famous Sal DiNatale and Angelo. They were the best Ferrari Mechanics in the Southern Californis area at the time. Many Many cars had there engines replaced with other Ferrari engines there simply No replacements available from the Factory OR IF THEY WERE AVAILABLE NOT AT REASONABLE PRICES OR LENGTH OF TIME ! This led to many swaps particularly on ex racers, often at other shops with small block corvette engines.

S/n 0515 the Zagato Bodied TDF had several different engines in her, she is not worth a penny less because of it. It simply what had to be done at the time, engine quality on the older cars was often poor, they overheated, heads warped, Valve guide wore out quickly, cars smoked like crazy which very few do now in comparison.

Ed Niles Please tell the others on this forum a little more of what it was like in the old days re engine swaps

 

That raises an interesting question. Does a car have more value new just out the factory doors or after it has some history?
If a car has say won LeMans with a replaced engine would anyone want to reinstall the original one?
Which one would the market value more?

 

IMHO, I wouldn't touch a car like a 330gtc with a non-original engine. There are just too many of them to pick from and yours will always be the last to sell and at the lowest price.

I would be concerned about why the original engine, or at least, the original block is not with the car. What other corner-cutting did the previous owners take on the car and why is the engine not there in the first place.
I personally don't think there is any good reason on a car like that.

Remember, a 330gtc, though a very nice car, is not a one-off Zagato bodied race car. It doesn't have a race history, it's engine was not blown on the Mulsanne straight. It doesn't gain anything from the reason for it's missing engine.

Additionally, all 330gtc engines are not the same. I really don't care what the point deducction is for a correct "type" of engine. There were so many variations that the only way you can know if the engine is correct is to have the original engine.
Morris

 

If it has the correct tipo 209/66 motor, I would snap it up and drive it forever.

 

Amen

 

Prance You do make a valid point, there were slightly less than 600 GTCs made a huge percentage of which survive, so there are many, many more to choose from, and the GTC community valuaes them very highly as built, on the other hand if you were looking for a 330GT with less than 300 survivors and a lower threshold price the right tipo motor is more than enough for that community. Bottom line if you are going to keep it forever then I would follow BrianPs terrific advice, if there is any chance you will exit it in say five years or less I wouldn't do it M

 

What about a 330GTC with a non original engine that has been restamped with the number of the original engine ? Surely this must be unacceptable to any buyer ?
There is one such car for sale at present . A search shows that the the numero interno of the motor corresponds to a different VIN.

 

15 to 25 percent.
10445 in NZ.

Marcel Massini