Odometer Roll Backs | FerrariChat

Odometer Roll Backs

Discussion in '458 Italia/488/F8' started by obbob, Feb 9, 2018.

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  1. obbob

    obbob Formula Junior

    Aug 14, 2017
    774
    I would like to ask you guys, what would you do if you have good suspicion that a Ferrari is about to go on sale that has recently had an odometer rollback?

    The car in suspect is high profile on social media, which the source of most of the evidence of that car being driven significantly more than it is being shown to have been. Odometer appears to have been rolled back by about 2000 miles, which would add tens of thousands to its market value for that kind of car.

    Not going to point out the car just yet since I'm not 100% certain yet.

    This also leads to another question, how common do you think rollbacks are among exotics? Exotics are the most mileage sensitive cars, so the financial incentive to rollback an exotic is much higher than an ordinary car.
     
  2. Napoli

    Napoli Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2017
    958
    Full Name:
    NOYB, Ray!
    Needs to be exposed. But, what if you’re wrong? So, maybe you should start out politely questioning vs accusing.

    Would you confront him on a social media/car forum to make his responses public?
     
  3. spyder625

    spyder625 Formula Junior

    Jun 16, 2017
    721
    NJ
    Full Name:
    Mike
    unfortunately these things happen and sometimes more at dealerships then we all know.. but i wouldn't get involved unless your 100 percent.
     
  4. kiryu

    kiryu Formula Junior

    Mar 28, 2016
    407
    Los Angeles
    According to a tuner/ mechanic friend, Italians are very easy to rollback, unlike Germans. His wealthy friend does it all the time. Of course for stuff like this everything remains anonymous


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. cool flash

    cool flash Karting

    Jun 18, 2016
    52
    I thought that mileage is also stored in the TCU (transmission control unit).

    It is strange how Ferraris in US have comparatively lower mileage than cars in Europe. Given that gas is so much cheaper one would think that US cars have higher mileage...

    CF
     
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  6. Gullwing

    Gullwing Karting

    Aug 30, 2016
    245
    Must just be more fearful of driving them. If the majority of the country is mileage conscious it’ll rub off onto everyone else.
     
  7. Napoli

    Napoli Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2017
    958
    Full Name:
    NOYB, Ray!
    Dealership service records include mileage at time of service as well. States require mileage recording at time of re-registration, state inspection, and emissions testing. And insurance companies like to know mileage. Better have your bases covered from the beginning if you’re gonna go the fraudulent route.
     
  8. Cigarzman

    Cigarzman F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    IMHO , a 2000 mile rollback seems hardly worth it.
    I think this thread comes under “ get some business and mind it “. Best , Kirk
     
    Tarek307, Viperjoe, Melvok and 2 others like this.
  9. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    Odo rollbacks on such electronically advanced supersports cars, is it even possible? I mean, in the sense that it's untraceable?

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  10. JimPVB

    JimPVB Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2016
    633
    Florida
    Personally, no knowledge whether it's ever been done, but these allegations show up from time to time. Logically, it makes NO sense for a dealership to risk their business by rolling back, these dealerships are not used car lots. Why would a dealer ever consider something that stupid, they pay what the car is worth when the owner brings it in for trade, or they price it based on the current market, including the mileage. The owner takes the hit, not the dealership. If a private owner has a way to roll back mileage, I would think they would eventually be exposed. If you can afford these cars, and you love to drive, accept the resale hit when it sells.


    Jim
     
  11. goachild2000

    goachild2000 Karting
    BANNED

    Jul 20, 2004
    244
    Houston, TX
    Full Name:
    Shardul Mehta
    Truth be told mileage can be rolled back on a 458 via the OBD2 port.
    Don't as me details etc etc.
     
  12. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
    9,696
    Full Name:
    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Ancient topic discussed many times here. The consensus last time was it is not much of a secret how its done for those that work with them. However, I would believe it will become extremely difficult in coming models as the ECUs and grid evolve and be in nearly constant communication. And with hybrid and full electric vehicles, it would be an ideal way to collect taxes as less revenue gets collected at the pump.
     
    AlfistaPortoghese likes this.
  13. cool flash

    cool flash Karting

    Jun 18, 2016
    52
    According to the website of an odometer adjustment company the 458 Italia gets adjusted as follows: dashboard, operating hours, engine control unit, transmission control unit, error codes.

    As long as you have the right adjustment tool (cost of 10,000 US$) you can easily via OBD2 adjust all relevant units on the car. Given the premiums that are piad for low mileage cars, such a unit may be worth it even for a single car.

    CF
     
  14. 2006m5

    2006m5 Formula Junior

    Dec 19, 2008
    914
    huntingdon valley PA
    To roll back miles it couldn't happen in Pennsylvania say for example
    When a car gets inspected miles get reported to state.
    If no cars get inspected yearly possibly it can happen.
    But this a bad thing if people to this...bad karma.
     
  15. cool flash

    cool flash Karting

    Jun 18, 2016
    52
    Of course it happens in PA. Unscrupulous owners just adjust the odometer right before the inspection.

    The more expensive the car, the more often it happens. Karma or no karma...
     
  16. JimPVB

    JimPVB Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2016
    633
    Florida
    #16 JimPVB, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2018
    Unfortunately, this is the world we live in, honesty means very little to those controlled by money. These people have no integrity......perhaps bad parenting, but likely just *******s. I wonder what they see when they look in the mirror........


    Jim
     
  17. Napoli

    Napoli Formula Junior

    Nov 18, 2017
    958
    Full Name:
    NOYB, Ray!
    #17 Napoli, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2018
    They see money.
     
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  18. LorenzoOO

    LorenzoOO Formula Junior

    Sep 21, 2017
    793
    Italia, US NE
    Full Name:
    Lorenzo LaMattina
    Is it an older car? Anything 20 years or newer is going to have a CarFax history available which could expose speedo fakery.
     
  19. JimPVB

    JimPVB Formula Junior

    Apr 24, 2016
    633
    Florida
    True, but reports are only generated when the owner visits the dealer for service (or repair), or goes to a shop that reports. My 458 is a good example, there was a period in the year when I drove 2300 miles 3 separate times (round trip to football games), so 6900 miles, in between dealer reports. If I were the kind of person that rolled back, I could have done that before going to dealer for annual service, and erased almost 7000 miles. If there were the will, there is certainly a way that mileage could more accurately be collected, automatically, via WiFi / GPS reports back to the manufacturer (or other entity) is one method, I'm sure there are others.


    Jim
     
  20. stretchgeneral

    stretchgeneral Formula 3
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Aug 9, 2014
    1,334
    MA/TX
    Full Name:
    McK
    Back in the '80's the speedo cable attached to the differential on the back side of BMW's. It clicked out easily. One late night in northern Oklahoma, I was passed by a convoy of about 5 new BMWs with window stickers heading north. I filed in behind them and they all had the speedo cables hanging down low behind the differential.
     
  21. AlfistaPortoghese

    AlfistaPortoghese Moderator
    Lifetime Rossa

    Mar 18, 2014
    3,778
    Europe, but not by much.
    Full Name:
    Nuno
    Most countries in the western world have cars undergo inspections.

    In England it's called MOT, in Portugal it's called IPO (on the 4th, 6th and 8th year of the car - and on a yearly basis from there onwards).

    Fact of the matter is meddling with the odo can go undetected. Not if you deduct mileage from it, but if you add only a portion of the miles the car was actually driven.

    For instance: if you deduct miles, this is a clear red flag and car at the MOT would look something like this:

    2010: 2.000 mi.
    2011: 10.000 mi.
    2012: 30.000 mi.
    2013: 55.000 mi.
    2014: 79.000 mi.
    2015: 101.000 mi.
    2016: 36.000 mi.
    2017: 44.000 mi.

    But if someone drives 10.000 mi/year for instance, but only adds 2 or 3.000 mi to the odo, mileage is shown to be always increasing (as it should) without still reflecting the car's actual mileage.

    And that is a worry.

    Not being a particularly electronically inclined guy, I don't know what to think: On the one hand, I can't believe that such advanced cars nowadays don't record every single parameter on the ECU, thus showing if the odo has been tampered with. On the other hand, if it's electronic, it depends on a human to be programmed and/or reprogrammed, so if someone knows what he's doing, he might pull it off.

    Kind regards,

    Nuno.
     
  22. norcal2

    norcal2 F1 Veteran

    Be careful on what you buy.....


    "Until recently, Ferrari dealers in South Florida and elsewhere were able to roll back the odometers of the fancy pre-owned cars they sold.

    But when the Miami Herald and other media organizations brought attention to it, the company discontinued the practice that could grossly inflate the value of used Ferraris, according to new documents filed in a Palm Beach County lawsuit.

    In an internal Ferrari memo filed Feb. 8 in the lawsuit brought by a former showroom salesman-turned-whistleblower Robert “Bud” Root, Ferrari North America notifies dealers it will no longer provide access codes that for years allowed an app called DEIS tester to make miles driven vanish from dashboards of Spiders, Californias and 488 GTBs.
    The odometer ‘reset to zero’ functionality is being removed,” the memo reads. It also announces the removal from its Ferrari Workshop Manuals of the paragraphs that taught techs how to roll back miles.
    “This internal Ferrari bulletin appears to confirm exactly what we suspected all along, that the odometer rollback device has been in place in Ferrari dealership service departments nationwide, if not worldwide, for many years [and] that the odometer rollback procedure was sanctioned at the highest organizational level,” said West Palm Beach attorney David Brodie, who represents Root.


    “The practice ceased after my client, Bud Root, blew the whistle and just days after his story was picked up by the media. What remains now is to determine how pervasive this practice has been and to compel Ferrari to come clean.”

    After spending 22 years selling Ferraris throughout South Florida, Root sued for libel Ferrari of Palm Beach and one of his clients, former Sara Lee Corp. CEO C. Steven McMillan.

    Root claims he was fired after discovering odometers got rolled back and discussing it with McMillan, who allegedly then paid off a mechanic from the dealership to roll back his LaFerrari mileage.

    Root explained in court paper the rollback — which had to be green-lit by Ferrari headquarters in Italy — instantly increased the resale value of McMillan’s $3 million-LaFerrari by $1 million, Root’s lawsuit claims.

    Root says he was fired by Ferrari of Palm Beach in January 2016 for “egregious violation of business ethics,” allegedly facilitating McMillan’s rollback.


    What really happened, Root says in the suit, is that he was targeted after he loudly objected to the use of the rollback device.

    Root was rehired in March 2016. Since then, however, he claims Ferrari of Palm Beach engaged in a pattern of retaliation, including his move to an office that’s harder to reach by customers.

    In a statement, Ferrari of North America Director of Communications Krista Florin said the company did nothing wrong or illegal.

    “Resetting an odometer to zero in case of a malfunction of the odometer when the pre-repair mileage is unknown is consistent with the federal odometer law,” Florin wrote. “Ferrari determined that the risks of odometer fraud in the United States from unauthorized use of the DEIS tool outweighed the convenience of this functionality, and thus, Ferrari has informed its network with a technical bulletin of a software update to eliminate the odometer reset functionality.”
     
  23. Solid State

    Solid State F1 Veteran
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Feb 4, 2014
    9,696
    Full Name:
    Maximus Decimus Meridius
    Software patches can easily be patched back. Compare the binary and replace back. Presto - feature restored. What's new about the article above is that the odometer rollback fraud was deemed too risky so it was dropped. If it was just the one case over the history then extremely small risk. Draw you own conclusions I guess.
     
  24. Melvok

    Melvok F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jul 25, 2008
    14,131
    Amersfoort, The Netherlands, Europe.
    Full Name:
    Mel
    Amazing LaF story ... makes the owner a croock also imo !
     
  25. LVP488

    LVP488 F1 Rookie

    Jan 21, 2017
    4,905
    France
    German cars are not immune; when I was living in Morocco Audi were routinely rolled back...
     

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