Official Countach Value Thread

Reasonable question.

In fact, why not look at it from the Seller's point of view, and make a list of what the respective Seller's actually received in their pocket after fees? Surely, that's important too? In that case the numbers would be even lower.

I agree, you can look at it from any perspective, and different perspectives will be more important to different people, but it doesn't mean there is any plot at hand or anything nefarious. You look at it from the perspective that matters to you.

Numbers pretty much speak for themselves, regardless. It really doesn't matter to me if numbers are on the increase, stable, or moving down, there is always business to do. But, to me, its very clear, the market has cooled a little, and the numbers underscore this. However, I understand that Countach owners don't want to hear it.

FWIW my numbers simply came from a data list I routinely compile (below).

2015 Results:

* Car Type - Auction House - Auction Estimate - Hammer Price (HP) / Highest Bid (HB)

1969 Lamborghini Miura P400S - Mecum - $1.5 to $1.75 million - HP $2.3 million

1989 Ferrari F40 (Euro car) - Mecum - $1.2 to $1.5 million - HP $1.15 million

1989 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary (Red) - Mecum - $400k to $450k - HB $310k

1990 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary - Mecum - $400k to $500k - HP $385k*

1989 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary (Black) - Mecum - $400k to $450k - HP $270k

1985 Ferrari 288 GTO - Bonhams - No estimate - HP $2.365 million

1990 Ferrari F40 - Bonhams - No estimate - HP $1,237,500

1967 Lamborghini Miura P400 - Bonhams - No estimate - HP $1,039,500

1983 Lamborghini Countach LP500S - Rick Cole - $475k to $550k - HB $395k

1991 Ferrari F40 - Rick Cole - $1.2 to $1.5 million - HP $1.25 million

1989 Lamborghini Countach 25th Anniversary - Rick Cole - $350k - $425k - HB $215k

 

Joe, I think you're playing in an area that you may not fully understand or are not disclosing well. When any car sells at an auction you never know what the auction house, seller, or buyer might have agreed too. Just like when you handle a deal privately and the public doesn't know.

Case in point, I accepted $385k net to me while on the block. Meaning, I received a check for $385k the next day, Sunday. The buyer may have paid the hammer price plus 10% but unless it was you or you are the auction house you can't even be 100% sure of that! And I don't really care either in my case. Bottom line? While these transactions may feel public, the final details more often than not are private and sometimes different final numbers. And since you trade privately there shouldn't be any criticisms about the right to know. I don't often ask for this "Net" concession, but in this case it was warranted and Frank Mecum was kind enough to agree. I don't expect it or abuse it either. Just because we have been selling with them since 1988 I can assure you, it is NOT always provided. I appreciate the opportunity to present the best cars I can to satisfy myself, the auction house, and the buyers. I actually enjoy when a car does well and they make the full commission on both sides.

I have always believed that auctions are frankly just a fast paced negotiation. It constantly amazes me how critical folks are of the auction bid/ask process. Without it and advertised prices, there would be no market price. Period! End of story. All you would have is hearsay from people claiming what they paid or received. Auctions and ads have and ALWAYS will define the general market and set the tone. It would be like the stock market going private to think otherwise. Impossible.

I was held captive of the "Broker Rule" back in 2009 when we were trying to sell our 28' Riva wood boat for seven figures. All the brokers were telling our prospects it was only worth half our asking price. The auction in Jan. 2010 put that to rest. As I have stated previously here, our "Broker valued $500k" boat sold for $837k including the buyer's premium. The next year we sold another one for over one million $. Look up Riva Aquarama wood boats and see what everyone asks now. It's not $500k anymore. Even the brokers agree now. And frankly, hey receive quite a bit more in commissions because of us.

It's understandable one must follow the auctions. That includes me too! The reason I sold my car is they weren't doing well all spring and summer and I wanted to invest more $ in Tesla. Unfortunately, as a private treaty broker your sales will never have the impact that auction transactions or advertised cars have. Up or down. You can only quote and follow these values to advise your clients. It's not a bad thing for you or about you, just a reality. And if it weren't true you wouldn't follow the auctions and advertisements so closely. In the end, we're all spectators and make adjustments along the way.

For me, one wife and many cars is the way to go!

 

Great post with useful information Scott, presented in a constructive & respectful manner.

I don't disagree with anything you say, and find your experience in that venue valuable. In fact, I have recently posted that I think auctions are an important part of the overall market.

My venue is decidedly Private Treaty: I enjoy it, and I excel in that venue best. Most of the clients I have cultivated over the years also prefer it, not least because they prefer paying 5% to much more by other means.

I'm glad you stated candidly that reason you sold was "they weren't doing well all spring and summer", because that is simply the truth, and everyone benefits when its simply told like it is.

As regards a previous poster's comments suggesting I am a bit biased, I'll just say, Ive no agenda whatsoever, and am simply reviewing the facts: the market is down from a high @ Pebble Beach 2014 and the ensuing months. That's my view underscored by hard numbers. At this point its indisputable, and I'm sticking with my observed recognition of same. If anyone feels differently, I respectfully understand. On the other hand if some consider an accurate market review to be a useful resource, then I'm happy also. Either way.

As an aside, one thing I like about Private Treaty is, whether the market is headed up, down or sideways, it makes little difference to the volume of business (as shown in the recent recession), because at every stage of an economy, there are people who want to buy or sell. Ergo there is no need for me to be biased one way or another, so I read the numbers as they speak for themselves.

 

So with a purchase price of $360k plus all the shipping and import fee's ect ect ect, you probably made a few bucks but not really the return I'm sure you hoped for ?

 

So your saying you had 3 people bidding on your car at well over a quarter million dollars and none of them knew the bumpers were factory original ? I'm not sure if the lesson learned was replace the factory bumpers or maybe the lesson was, just because you bring a car to an auction does not mean you must sell it short to completely uneducated buyers ? That looked like a very nice car with ridiculously low mileage and very hard to replace. I just don't think the right buyers were there that day and in my humble opinion I think you sold that car at least $50k short. Where is the next one like that ?

 

Thanks Joe.

There is no question that your style has and will always have a place in the market.

Like everyone, there are trigger points which are weighted. Depending on the hierarchy of each person's points, a basis for buying, holding, or selling can be determined. I personally believe the Anniversary Countach values are solid and holding. I seriously doubt they will drop and expect them to be seven figure cars eventually. I stated the exact same thing to a person who bought my XJ220 a year and a half ago. I sold it for $275k, RM sold a lesser car for $462k. Your next thought might be, why didn't you keep it if you were so sure. Simple, and the same reason I sold the Countach. The thrill, excitment and pleasure of the auction venue. And if you're going to offer product at auction you better sell the majority or the auction house will not take your next consignment request. Then there is the pleasure of having many cars over time.

As I have stated often before, many cars, one wife, pleasant life.

 

Good post

 

Okay, so here it is. I paid $349k US plus import fees, bought a set of factory tools, servicing at the dealer in Orlando, transportation, auction fees were only paid by the seller in this case, I shot the pictures so I didn't have to pay an entry/photographer fee, and a few miscellaneous things not worthy of stating for a grand total of 8% (annual) return on my investment. Or about $14k. And while I expect more out of my paper investments like the Tesla options we bought, they're not quite as thrilling as driving a Countach!!

It's all good from here. And I would buy another if the opportunity presented itself again.

 

This is interesting to me. I am not much of a seller but I have done it from time to time to thin the herd or make room for a new acquisition. I sold four cars in the last year in a deliberate paring down of my collection: a Ferrari Daytona, a Countach, a BMW M1, and a 1973 Porsche Carrera RS. RM and Gooding wanted all of them for various sales. Instead, I sold one to a dealer, one through a dealer, one through a broker (Joe, who was simply spectacular), and only one through auction: the Carrera RS at the RM Amelia sale this year.

It was the most terrifying thing I've ever done. RM was extremely good at their job, effective, and without a doubt someone I would use again - they got a world record price - but the whole thing was not something I would refer to as "the thrill, excitement and pleasure."

There are advantages to taking a car to auction in many cases but it would never occur to me that people do it for the "thrill." But again, I don't understand the attraction of casinos, lottery tickets, NCAA tournament pools, etc. either.

For the record, I have bought several cars from RM and Gooding so I do like buying at auction more than selling.

 

Agree 100%, but the car was committed to a "NO RESERVE" sale...so it was going to sell regardless of the final price. However, as Scott has pointed out here...it was for me fun and exciting AND I did make a profit, small, but still a profit. The ALL money was turned around to purchase other vehicles that I am sure will end up at Auction or on my website down the road.

 

I completely understand your perspective. I am certain within your world there are perspectives that would make me feel very uncomfortable. It is true that I have a high tolerance for risk. Not sure where that comes from, learned, accepted, or genetics. Or maybe I have been able to manage the risk enough to match my tolerance. Whatever the case, I do enjoy it. And when it works, it is nothing short of spectacular! The validation for my own convictions is pleasant as well. I spent 6 years holding an opinion on our Riva boat before I proved to myself it was correct. Make no mistake, I had many moments of question internally and of course from my partner and wife of 34 years! But we plowed through those successfully.

I do buy and sell occasionally through brokers or traditionally with ads. All have served me well. Of the deals over 30 years I can rate as my best, they largely revolve around making very quick decisions on relatively high valued assets.

 

Thank you for the response.

For my money, this data is not compelling. Just one guy's opinion, but....

"high bid" is a meaningless number to me. If there's no sale there's no data.

Anniversary cars are a different market than 1988 and earlier, a strange market. Lots of cars are always available from dealers. Dealers put massive price tags on them that don't seem realistic. They are priced higher than 5000S or QV, but I'm not convinced they are actually sold for more than a S or QV. I don't see a lot of correlation between Anni prices and Countach prices for 79-88 cars.

So IMO a high bid on an '83 and a bunch of Anni auction sales doesn't really tell us much. I'm not saying the market is up, or the market is down. All I'm saying is that this data doesn't mean much.

I'm sure Joe has more data from private sales, but I understand that's confidential.

 

In an earlier post you claimed you paid $360k for it, that's how I came up with that number. But then again the eBay listing you purchased the car from says you paid $525k ? Seems there has been much pricing misinformation surrounding this particular car from the beginning.

 

Thank you Ryan.

 

I understand your perspective.

Think of the data as a single brush-stroke that's simply part of the whole picture. So the specific numbers (high bid, hammer, hammer plus fees etc) may not be compelling or meaningful as presented individually, but as someone who does this 24/7/365, I glean good information to form the big picture from every piece of data. That's my view.

 

Purchase price was $348,000 US.
Duty was $8,700
Customs Broker fee was $485
Transportation was $1,800
Specific and exact total sitting in Florida my cost, $358,985

I thought it would be okay to round it off at $360k.

And I suppose technically, it is still a "Claim" since I am not showing the actual Customs documents and bill of sale to you.

Sorry.

 

What the heck, might as well put an end to the insinuations once and for all. Now you can't use the word "Claim".


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I am very happy you made money with your Countach Flip Scott. You jumped on this forum right around the time you bought your car claiming to be a Countach enthusiast and picking everyone's brain about Anniversary car values. I have no problem with people making money from selling cars, in fact I have been doing it for a long time. There are dealers and brokers on this forum as well, but they don't try and hide what they do. I was concerned that you lost a lot of money after paying $525k for that car. Oh yes I forgot, you didn't pay that for it, you just "CLAIMED" that's what it sold for as to pump up the market for your future flip. One last question, did you need to pay the seller to change that selling price or did he do it voluntarily $

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Details about 1990 Lamborghini Countach Countach 25th Anniversary
1990 Lamborghini Countach 1-owner with only 3100kms
1990 Lamborghini Countach Countach 25th Anniversary
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A very insincere post.

This forum is a place to exchange information about the Lamborghini Countach. I did not read anywhere in the rules that I should or could not ask questions and respond to posts about the cars just because I own them with a dealer's license. A quick Google search would show anyone more than they would EVER want to know about me. And I did use my name, not an alias.

With respect to your comments about me pumping up the market. You gave me WAY too much credit. If all it takes to change a market value is to make a few comments on this forum I guess I would have made much more, right? I bought the car because I liked it, it had ultra low miles, I really loved the color, and I thought it was cheap. The same reason I buy any car or truck.

And your false accusation towards me about the sale price posted when I bought the car is just that. A false accusation. I guess you feel if you say or write it over and over that makes it true. You're WRONG! Period, on my wife and son's life, you're wrong. If you have an issue with that you need to call the seller or complain to ebay. I had nothing to do with it. Maybe he felt embarrassed to sell it to me so cheap. You'd have to ask him about it. The manufactured concept that I actually PAID him to do that is disgusting. I frankly wouldn't have thought of that until you mentioned it. As you discovered in my last post, I have documents to back up my statements, do you?

Everyone was asking who bought the car and where it went. So I took the time to share with them. Would you have preferred I stayed silent? I suppose you do, that way you can manufacture hypotheticals about the transactions that couldn't be further from the truth. That's really the bottom line, I won't apologize for commenting here with my name front and center. If you have an issue with me, don't read my posts or just ask the moderator to kick me off. Otherwise, I'm here to stay.

And you likely won't hear from me until I buy another Lamborghini with my Tesla stock option profits. Unless of course I change my mind. Which I'm quite certain I can do without your permission.

 

I get Scotts point,lots of money tied up,no emotional tie to the car, I met Scott, he gets IT, move on , time will tell, Tesla stock or Countach, their batt tech Nevada factory is amazing and tons of potential ,the Car itself,with competition buildig from Very deep pockets,not so shure,

 

So far I have seen tons of competitive plans aimed towards Tesla. But none of them address the Supercharger infrastructure which is mandatory to actually use the car like petrol powered versions. Other companies may come out with a car in a year or two but no matter how big their plans are, the process of choosing sites and gaining regulatory permission with hundreds of communities worldwide to locate fast charging stations is a slow churn.

 

Hah!

We have a 2009 GL 320 as a daily driver but I actually do buy her a special car about every 6 months or so. Looking for a Rover Evoque right now. Longest car I have owned lately was a 2013 Tesla P85+. Paid sticker and sales tax but did get the $7,500 tax credit.

Here is the Queen with the latest!

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how do you (she)like it?

 

Just painted one of my bigger cc in that blue