Official Countach Value Thread

Normal sentiments, completely understandable.

I think the first question you have to ask yourself is what you will use the car for.

Then ask yourself if you are the type who enjoys the process of fettling, tuning, repairs etc (some do, some don't).

Those 2 questions will guide you in the direction you need to go.

Peter is right, you can revisit cars you have previously considered too.

But Patience is the Countach buyers mantra and it truly is a virtue to the buyer. I remember circa 1990 I decided buy an LP400. It took years for me to find one I was willing to buy. Having said that, I'm sure 'your' car is in some garage sitting patiently waiting for you!

 

It's a nice thought

 

I know a man who paid $325,000 for an Annivesario new. One-off livery, in the USA. Still has it. Has only Valentino's 175 test miles Yep, its parked in his private collection.

I guess its all relative because he is a very well-known vintage/historic racer with an Alfa/Maserati/Ferrari race-car collection worth millions, but even he says: "Joe, I can never sell it in my lifetime, I paid way too much!!"

 

I completely understand what Top carbon is going through because I am frusterated as well. Joe Sackey gave great advice, we must excercise patience.

I don't agree with buying something that is less than what you want and then looking to sort it out unless you are talking about minimal differences that are not going to impede with your overall wish list.

They say the best part of the hunt is the chase but I can tell you some of these sellers need a reality check in what is actually meant by the terms "Immaculate, Pristine and Sorted"

 

I think everyone is forgetting a few things here..I dont think "Patience" is the answer..maybe for some..for me it's more like "get in the game while you can"..

Ever heard the saying of "Buy the least exspensive home in the most exspensive neighborhood"..yes, be cause it will appreciate the most pct wise as time goes on..and your NOW on the playing field..

Same with cars, IMO. Lets just take the Countach as an example, as that is what this thread is about. In the last 12-16 months, the car, for the most part, regardless of it's condition has seen in increase in both the SALE and the ASK price. When this occurrs, it cuases, as I see it, some not so great examples of the item to surface and be offered up at a price that it is not worthy of its price. To those sellers, shame on you. That is just taking advantage of an up-swing. For me, as a Dealer, I am held to a higher standard. I need to be all about full disclose...if not I can be out of business tomorrow. For a private seller not so, he/she, can take the one time "overpayment" and run to the bank laughinig all the way...these are the sellers that use the words of Immaculate, prestine etc etc..and they have to be treated with full caution.

SO what does this have to do with getiing on the "field". Lets just say a base example car today is 100K...and a great example is 150K. As time goes on, the 150K goes up. As it rises in NATURALY brings the base car up with it right behind. SO in 2-4 years your once 100K base is now 125 and the great is 175K.

So the base may NOT be the car you want to settle on, but as you are on the search for the GREAT one, your "poker chip" on the table, the base one has kept pace. Now the great one comes along. Would you rather still be zero and go to 175K, or would you rather trade your chip in at 125k and move up in the same level playing field.

It is the same with the "first" house we all bought. We NEVER intended to live there for ever..but it was a moving and growing investment (for the most part). We did some changes and re-vamps wwe wanted..it kept us in the ever changing price increase game...when time came for the step up, out intial not the perfect home, somehwaht kept pace and allowed us to move up the chain. A natural movement, with homes, cars, art work..just about anything that is of investment grade.

So, I will offer up my 1987 Triple Black FI as a test/example here. It is NOT a prestine PERFECT/Great car. As a matter of fact, 6 months ago you could have bought it all day long for $77K..which is exaclty what I did. Just by etting it sit, it has already become worth more then 77K..we all KNOW that. I could have taken it and spent $55K on it to make it perfect..nope..it is what it is..it is a "starter" Countach, is it someones first car (house) in the ever increasing exspensive neighorbhood.

So, I start with a car that is good quailty body and paint, no accidents, no spider cracks or major flaws, good interior, no rips tears, fading etc. Low miles, good ex service records, has it's exspensive hard to find tool kit. Mechanical OK, but needs TLC. SO you put new tires on it, re-furbish the wheels back to the orginal gold. You tune it up real good, new plugs, all filters, fluids. Replace a faulty water pump, a bad fuel line, two bad fuel accumelators, cooling fan, brakes and other minor things here and thers. Then you fix the shrinking dash leather, replace the radio with the correct OEM radio (you dont hook it up because I dont care about the radio, I like the moter sound). The instrument surrond pod is warped due to sun exposure, but it is still functinal. BINGO you are already in the car 15K, not to mention your transport fee's, money cost with its down time, insurance..etc etc..BUT you know have a good BASE car, NOT a perfect example.

It is now ready for the NEXT "young couple" to buy their first car (house). It is well under market value at $98k or so.. It still needs some work to get it perfect..BUT in the meantime, they have a roof over the head and are now in the game...it goes up and stays par with the next move up..thats the way I see it.

Of course the other option is..PAY all the money for a perfect example, as they are worth it, or just quit beely aching about the situation..the choice is yours, NOT the seller..remember..he/she HAS the keys to the car (hosue)...he is in the game already...you want the keys and need to get into the game before th 9th inning and your shut out at a 8 to zero score...

Justy the way I see things.

 

I have a good friend that has been talking about wanting a Lamborghini Countach for the last 10 years. When speaking to him the other day I told him about pricing etc of these machines and that he maybe should jump in now and get one while they still are "affordable".
Because of family, kids and other projects (house etc) he thinks it is not possible to purchase one at the moment.
Point is that while you are waiting to organize your life and get enough dough the asking prices may rise and move faster then you wish.
Wonder where Countach prices will be in 10 years...?

 

I think you have to set the level where you are comfortable. In my instance it was time to jump as UK prices have leapt in the past 12 months. As a car guy I knew what I was getting into, probably 30K of work to get the car pristine over the purchase price, at the time I bought paying upto 60k over a serviceable example for a great example made no sense. At the moment this is all covered by rises in the market, plus I can handle mechanical work myself.

However the point was not about making money, it was this was the car I have lusted after since being a 10 year old watching the Cannonball run. The car appreciating is a bonus.

If people can put the spanner work in then the cost of ownership is lessoned and the enjoyment maximised. Trust me a concours car brings other problems of ownership, like never wanting to use it just in case you damage the finish somewhere. In the UK there are still firms doing fantastic work for great prices, you just have to search them out.

 

One thing that might help sellers and buyers be more realistic is to understand the different grades of shape.

#1 car is a restored to current max professional standards. A 95 plus point show car. Not really driven.

#2 car is fine shape with minimal wear. Except for close inspection it will appear to be a #1 car. It's a driven #1 car.

#3 car is a very good shape car. Most decent cars will fall in this. Nice, but not perfect.

#4 is a 20 footer, a driver that needs help. At 20 feet, you can see it needs help. Will have issues.

#5 is a restorable car. It may or may not run or be drivable. It's a fairly complete project

#6 is a parts car.


Let's be realistic. The cost to take a car up just one number is significant. A buyer can expect a number 3 car to still need 10k of work on a Countach. Things like loose suspension joints, dated tires etc. Conversely a seller can not expect a buyer to pay a number one price for a car needing anything. A good recent example of a number one car would be Albert's 5000s or Brian's silver s2 getting fully restored. A $100k Countach will not be a #1 or even a #2 grade car, of any variant at this point imo.

 

Roy, dont sell it before Monday

 

This is a good description, I can agree with it..

I would put my LP400 at a #1 (however I do drive it) I just had the entire car done with the new Venture Shield product, will help elimintae 98% of road rash, chips, bug acid etc etc..but I am sure in future years of driving it may cause it to fall to 1.5 car..but I know that going into it, just want to enjoy it. IMO is worth every penny north of $600K

My 88 1/2 DD is a 1.75 or very very strong 2 car..it could not be a more perfect driver and with the here and there minor cosmetic touches I did it brought it up. It is a solid all there car. Everything works as it should. Extremely re-liable, great body and paint, no cracking, shines well, a few minor road rash chips here and there, interior.... spent several days to bring it to a extremely nice condition, no rips, no tears, no fading, dash good. Has tools and spare, no books. A car that could easily be driven from Seattle to Monterey, win at concourso show, but not Pebble Beach and owner would be very very proud of it, as I am. IMO, it is worth as well, everything north of $250K

My 87 Black FI is a 3 car. Its all there, drives good, looks good, no major issues other then the leaking tranny, WHICH will require an engine out service to correct. I am sure with the engine out you could spend more money while there, I.E. correct plug wires (color) detail the engine bay re-spray, clean up the motor, heat coat the headers etc etc..I think it is safe to say, as pointed out here, another 10K investment..BUT I think it is correctly priced currently at $98K. If I were to put another 10K into, which I have not decided yet, it would be a 2 minus 3 very strong car IMO and value in the 120K neighborhood.

My 81 S2 LowBody Black car, thats hard as it is an orginal car. It drives great, low miles, good body, original paint with cracking and spyder webs in the normal locations. Has its tools, no rips or tears in the interior but is fading in some locations, dash superior condition, new tires, fresh service, no books, everything works on the car as it should. Flaws, will be needing a clutch sooner then later, turn signal stock is loose, flash to pass lights have been rewired to a little toggle switch for on always fog lights..so IMO a good 12-15K to make it a excellent driver all orginal non-restored car..and again I think very fairly priced at $160K. So I think it is also a very strong 3 or 2 minus..but there is also someting there for it being all orginal...what that is I am not sure.

 

Feel free (anyone!!) to expand upon what shape each number should be. I think the number system, used on most other collector cars, can help explain why one car is worth a substantial amount more (or less) than a similar year/make/model. Even when they look near identical. There really isn't any guides that are market correct for the buyer/seller, so maybe this can help.

 

I like the number break-down. I can see the frustration but sellers have always "lied"
about the condition of their cars... i don't like it either, it's not right, but it's fact. You are supposed to try to enjoy being blessed enough to be in the market and searching. Keep that in mind and try to not get down about it.... trouble Looking for the countach you WANT to buy...? A good problem to have.

 

I think Peter has a good suggestion to consider... Talk to Roy in detail about that car, pick the top issues that would bother you and pay him to have them tended to and never look back.

 

To each his own. I don't swap in and out of cars like some change their socks. Roy, you have a dealer's license, so it's easy for you to look at it that way. I live in NYC where the sales tax is almost 9% plus registration, plus inspection, plus transport, plus PPI, plus broker fee(if I so choose). Yeah, all of a sudden it doesn't get so easy to jump in and out like I'm buying a used dishwasher.

Besides when you sell your car, you can sell it at a premium, because you are the medium(the broker) to which the car will be sold. If I trade the "not so mint Countach" in at a dealer to upgrade for something nicer, gee, how much of that appreciation since I bought it Roy, do you think I will have????

One more thing. You are a dealer and you probably have access to mechanics and sources for parts at a discount from what I or most would pay and rightly so because you deal in volume and I don't. But please, don't sound like a carnival barker and tell people to step right up because for me your logic in this case doesn't hold up.

By the way no need to mention about the overhead and advertisement fees that you pay. I am talking specifically about your advice for someone to "get in while you still can".

Perhaps it would work for someone else but I will wait for the right example or move on to something else. But no matter, I never settle when I purchase an item like an exotic car. If I miss the mania and the parabolic move so be it.

 

One more thing, if that "belly aching" reference was meant for me, re-read my post it was a one line comment on carbon's post about how hard it could be to find the right Countach. I, as you know was a Sergeant in the NYPD for 15 years, seen and been through a bit and wasn't "belly aching" as Ken points out, about a high quality problem. I do think you should be more prudent with some of your words.

If you want to contact me directly, you have my #.

 

We can see clearly from the challenges facing buyers Jason & Antonio that "one shoe does not fit all". So all the theories & helpful suggestions will likely fall on deaf ears because these 2 individuals will ultimately do what feels right and is comfortable to them as individuals - all logic & advice aside.

Furthermore, buy theories and quality scales are good, but this is the Countach Values thread so what a buyer really wants to know is: what did one of these sell for last time out of the gate? What are the real comps of actual sales (private, dealer & auction)? That's what really matters and is the foundation of a values thread.

 

Problem is these cars don't sell that often and not all details are available about every sale...
If we don't talk about some "other" topics ie buying experience, what to look for and asking questions then this VALUE thread is going to die or only pop up once a month with the usual "what should i pay for this one" type question.

 

The phrase was not ment towards you OR anyone in paticular, it was a phrase..sorry if you took it that way....and to each their own thought, thats what we are here for, differnt views.

I am happy with the words I use, they are mine and I am OK with them, even if they seem harsh to some..

 

Good points. My sentiments were that we should not lose sight o the basis for a values discussion: numbers tied to results.

 

Yes, absolutely.

Of course, it all depends primarily on 2 factors:

- Who is doing the work
- If you are involved yourself hands-on

 

Given recent activity (or lack hereof) Ive adjusted my numbers a little.

============================================

LP400 - $350,000 to $550,000

LP400S S1 - $250,000 to $375,000

LP400S S2 - $150,000 to $200,000

LP400S S3 - $125,000 to $175,000

LP500S - $125,000 to $175,000

LP500QV FI - $75,000 to $125,000

LP500QV DD - $150,000 to $200,000

ANNIVESARIO - $100,000 to $150,000