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Opening Pandora's Box

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Napolis, May 20, 2008.

  1. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,118
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #1 Napolis, May 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    These are interesting times. At the recent auction a 250 GT SWB California Spyder sold for almost 11mm$ with the following disclousure:

    "This car has a correct Ferrari 250 GT SWB California Spyder engine although we cannot confirm it is engine # 2377GT. Ferrari Classiche have re stamped a new and correct internal number for this type of engine."

    As we know TOTAL originality is very rare and if one is going to drive the car sometimes impractical.

    Taking Dino Competizione for example when we showed her at Villa d'Este she was in her concourse mode including original tires etc. but driving 1000 kms through the mountains of Sicily isn't something I plan to do on those tires. Ignition is another issue.
    Starting Plugs/running plugs works at Le Mans but when you're stuck in a bit of traffic and you drop half of them Electronic Ignition isn't a bad thing to have.

    There is also the issue of damage. Dino's original Gull Wing Doors are very beautiful but they are very heavy and a real strain to open from the inside and not really safe for fast exit by some one like my wife sitting in the passenger seat. They also weigh so much that if one leaves them open for too long they torque the hinges and cause the doors to become misaligned.

    The solution I decided on was to have her in two modes. Concourse and Driving. Concourse she's as she was. In her driving set up she has a fire system, seat belts, air filters, electronic ignition, newly cast wheel and new tires, modern shocks so as not to stress the chassis, a bit more ride height and softer springs, and we've even made a set of light weight driving doors out of carbon fiber.

    Everything we're done can be put back without a trace and as everything is fully disclosed I think all is good.
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  3. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,773
    Indianapolis
    Good practical approach Jim...

    Your car was a "show car". Show cars can be anything from a body buck to a production car. The fact that it wasn't very practical as a 1968 show car doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to enjoy it in today's world. Having ignition that will fire cold plugs is a mod that you made for "comfort and convenience". So long as you can put it back to the original condition when you want to, I see no downside to the mods you have made to be able to enjoy the car in classic cruise events and the like. Same thing for the air filters, why eat up a very valuable engine when you are running on the street. If you were vintage racing and putting on modern fuel injection to gain a performance advantage I wouldn't think that to be acceptable, but I would be doing pretty much the same thing if it were mine.

    If it makes it more likely that you will use the car in classic events, and let us all enjoy seeing it up close and personal, I think we are all better for it.

    Some purists might want you to keep it absolutely the way it was when built, but it's your car and you should be able to enjoy it the way you want.
     
  4. Alan Guerzoni

    Alan Guerzoni Karting

    Dec 27, 2006
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    Alan Guerzoni
    Nice idea, very pratical!

    Some owners keep their Ferraris in personal museums (or just in "living room"), protected, and that cars are driven really for little miles every year.
    But this isn't your case: you bought that beauties for driving and enjoing them. So this is the best choiche.

    Regards

    Alan
     
  5. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2008
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    David
    Great mods. Why should one have to choose between authenticity and practicality. Once again you prove to be a fine steward of our heritage.
     
  6. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    I think the key is making any Modifications bolt on/bolt off.

    Best
     
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  8. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jan 11, 2008
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    David
    The key is caring enough to use the cars as intended and preserving them at the same time. While I appreciate the need to sometimes choose between the two its great to see am effort to reconcile what are often mutually exclusive goals.
     
  9. R33

    R33 Formula Junior

    May 7, 2005
    969
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    Paul Creed
    Bolt on/bolt off is a great approach Jim. We have many cars in our club that make bodywork/wheel and suspension changes just to purely go on track without ruining the original parts.
    A great and practical approach to what is today becoming a very confused collectors market
     
  10. Alex1015

    Alex1015 Formula Junior

    Sep 1, 2005
    941
    USA
    Good thoughts. It is very tough to draw a line so to speak. Originality is limited and I don't know that it could apply to consumable items (brakes etc.) but then again over a long enough time frame everything on the car is consumable.

    On a semi-related note I just don't understand the allure of Classiche certification via restamping the block. It still is likely not the original block but the stamp doesn't change anything. It just proves someone was willing to spend a good deal of money. This stamp doesn't make the engine original or anything. My personal opinion of the Classiche program has inevitably slipped through here, and I hate to take this thread off topic but I can't help but feel its real purpose is thinly veiled.

    In terms of originality I think a correct engine is more important than original tires. Then again where would something in between fall, after all there are many GTO's out there with plenty of panels that aren't original.
     
  11. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #9 Napolis, May 20, 2008
    Last edited: May 20, 2008
    I agree that it's a very bizarre notion that a stamp affixed in 2008 would have any bearing on the value of a car produced in the 60ies. It is good that this recent stamping has been fully documented.
     
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  13. tx246

    tx246 F1 Veteran
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    Nov 4, 2003
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    in a strange twist of fate, had the subtle changes only been made a couple of months ago, they would have been original to the car and as delivered new to the first owner.
     
  14. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #11 Napolis, May 20, 2008
    Last edited: May 20, 2008
    :)

    (All of these interchangeable modifications are being done by Pininfarina)
     
  15. lotustt

    lotustt Formula 3

    Aug 28, 2002
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    TRM
    Great to know the car will be driven and enjoyed as the intention of its original purpose.
     
  16. Jack-the-lad

    Jack-the-lad Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Very similar to what I've done with my cars, but to a much more modest extent than you have, of course. Anything that will enhance the performance, reliability and safety of the car is OK to change, as long as a re-conversion to original is possible and practical.

    Jack.
     
  17. TensorWorld

    TensorWorld Rookie

    May 18, 2008
    7
    And does it matter when the damage happend? I mean a few panels wrecked at Le Mans in the 60's would seem to add not detract value from the car. I have always thought the history was what was important. Otherwise you can end up with a Theseus' Ship paradox where you can't figure out which one of several cars rebuilt from parts of one original car can hold claim to the identity of the original car.
     
  18. 410SA

    410SA F1 Veteran

    Nov 2, 2003
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    This brings to the forefront the 'recreations' or clones of several important cars - a particular GTO comes to mind - where the owner felt that he wanted a drivable example that wouldn't expose the original to risk. The issue I believe is one of disclosure, not of the mods or even the clones that are done or built post the original production.

    I applaud your practicality Jim. That car is way too beautiful not to be driven, especially in the glorious countryside of Northern Italy where it was conceived. Enjoy it, and all of your lovely machines in good health always.
     
  19. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Remember how Italians think :)

    The fact that FERRARI have now stamped that block with the right number makes it that number, because they can do what they like. Remember no different to Ferrari originally stamping the block, as far as they are concerned. And they have a weird point.
    If I owned a really, really important historic, I would run a non-original engine ... but this contradicts my hate of replica makers/owners/supporters taking all the spare parts from people who desperately need them for real restorations. Thus maybe I would rebuild the original engine with Carello rods, brand new crank and pistons, etc. to massively reduce the chance of damage to that block and heads.

    Pete
     
  20. DAYTONASME

    DAYTONASME Formula Junior

    Jan 12, 2007
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    DAYTONASME
    +1
     
  21. michael platzer

    michael platzer F1 Veteran

    Nov 12, 2003
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    i like your approach on the holy metal from maranello !
     
  22. of2worlds

    of2worlds F1 World Champ
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    Apr 6, 2004
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    Jim the solution for your weighty problem seems very logical. New doors in carbon raise an interesting question; what kind of paint will be used for the new doors? Also how is the shade matched up with the 'old' aged original paint in these modern times? Thanks
    CH
     
  23. jcwconsult

    jcwconsult Karting

    Sep 20, 2004
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    Jim Walker
    Jim, the Dino looked magnificent on display, and we gave it our two votes for the people's choice. But, watching how carefully you had to operate the doors at Villa d'Este, it makes perfect sense to use the light ones for both safety and preservation reasons. Ditto the other safety and reliability additions/substitutions so that the car can see the light of day on real roads, without unnecessarily risking the structure or the people. With Pininfarina doing the work, the alternate systems should bolt on and off whenever necessary. This historic car is in good hands and many more people will be able to enjoy seeing it, both on display AND being driven the way it should be.

    Regards,

    Jim and Molly Walker
    365 GT 2+2 #12451
     
  24. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    Hi

    Thanks.

    As to the paint. Modern technology is quite amazing. We scanned the old doors and using CAD can make exact carbon duplicates.

    Paint technology is also amazing. PF and Dupont came up with carbon paint that looks like alloy and can be matched exactly to any paint without issue.

    Best
     
  25. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #22 Napolis, May 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  26. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    Jim Glickenhaus
    #23 Napolis, May 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is an interesting one. The lowest part of the underside is the radiator bottom. This is a skid guard that protects that and is attached to suspension so it will skip the car over the bottoming out protecting the radiator.
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  27. CMY

    CMY F1 Veteran

    Oct 15, 2004
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    Great idea, great execution.

    Pandora need not worry. :)
     
  28. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie
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    Aug 13, 2002
    3,731
    Santa Fe, NM
    I never liked her . . .

    Great work (as usual), James.
     

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