P 4/5 oil

If you only lose 5 PSI when the engine is at normal operating temperature and when hot on the track you have no problem. But, you need to have 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM for the higher rev areas. For example, at 6,000 RPM you should have 60 PSI.

Back to the issue where the Shell oil drops to a 40 grade - you may want to change the oil just before any scheduled track events. That way the oil will be as close to the 60 grade as possible. If the oil drops to a 40 grade after the race then it should be OK for city driving. Again, I use a 30 grade and the oil analysis shows less wear than the 60 grade Shell product under the exact same conditions.

Wear seems to be viscosity independent. Here is another item I stole from BITOG:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=924463#Post924463

Here is just my first post:

"Effect of Lubricant Properties and Lubricant Degradation on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in a Spark-Ignition Engine, Schneider et al:

Every person interested in motor oil should go to SAE.org and purchase this article. (The paper was very detailed and I have tried to simplify the results. Also, I will need to report the results in several different postings so hang on please.) This research is made more relevant by actually using V-6 engines for wear testing - 1999 GM 3.4-L 60 degree block. And the radiotracer method of wear detection has been shown to be very accurate. They go on to say that cylinder wear and ring wear are perhaps the best areas to test oil and wear for engine longevity, particularly the rings.

Part 3 and final in this review:

Fully formulated Synthetic SJ 0W-30, 5W-30 and SL 0W-30 oils were compared to SJ and SL 5W-30 mineral based oils for wear. There were no differences. (This is worth repeating - there were no differences in wear rates between mineral and synthetic based oils.)

Next are the effects of viscosity and oil temperature. Only ring wear was tested as they state it was most sensitive. They compared basic SJ GF-3 mineral oils. The additive packages were the same. The only difference was the viscosity of the base oils. The following grades resulted: 0W-10, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-40. The HTHS for these oils were 2.17, 2.83, 3.09 and 3.76.

There was no difference in wear rates. The oils were tested at all RPMs and Loads, no difference between oil grades were noted. All the oils had increasing wear rates as the load increased but all increased at the same rate across the board.

Most interesting to me was the way they tested wear at lower, start up, oil temperatures. In a previous study (1) they start with room temperature engines and oil showing the trend of decreasing wear as the engine heated up. In the current study they actually took a hot engine and chilled the coolant and oil from that of the normal operating temperature to a coolant temperature of around 80 F and oil temperature to 70 F. As the temperatures fell the wear increased. It reached the same rate of wear as the 4,000 RPM full load WOT. This was with the load at the minimum level. The fluids were then allowed to heat back up to normal operating temperatures and the wear rates normalized (decreased).

Wear at room temperature oil was 20 times higher than wear at normal operating temperatures. This finding is what closed the article. They stated that this will be the next focus of their upcoming research.

Final (personal) comments:

I like synthetic oils for very high temperature applications where the oil would consistently be above 260 F in the sump. I also like synthetic oils because they are less thick at start up at 70 F. These are worth the extra cost to me.

I like using slightly thinner oils when possible. I am not afraid of them. They allow for more BHP - get up and go. And you get a little better gas mileage. Why not take advantage of it if you can? Wear does not seem to be an issue much of the time.

aehaas

(1) Effect of Break-In and Operating Conditions on Piston Ring and Cylinder Bore Wear in SI (Spark-Ignition) Engines, Schneider et al:
The rate of wear is much higher within 15-20 minutes of start-up than after reaching normal operating temperature. There was a lot of data but I conclude that the initial start-up time period (first 20 minutes) result is 100 nanometers of wear whereas the steady state wear rate was only 4 nanometers per hour thereafter. (Hence we should be concerned about start-up oil thickness more than running thickness. This justifies the statement that 95 percent of engine wear occurs just after start-up.)"

aehaas

 

Have your oil temp and pressure sensors been calibrated, specifically for operation at peak temp/pressure specs?

 

I'd suggest that they use your 0w60 oil for the calibration tests if the sensors are being checked outside the P4/5.

 

'Spoke to Adam Rowley at FNA. He said that none of the Challenge series nor Enzo, FXX series cars running year after year on the track have ever had any oil starvation issues. The FXXs running the 10W60 Helix, despite its rapid viscosity thinning has not been an issue. These cars are driven under more grueling conditions than others would encounter. Even though Ferraris are often run with high fuel dilution and many are delivered OEM with 30 grade oils there have been no oil starvation issues. This is certainly an impressive "track" record.

They are aware of my conversion to vegetable based motor oil and are waiting for enough miles to accrue for an analysis. I always share my oil experiment results with the tech people at FNA.

aehaas

 

Oil starvation is a completely different issue from inadequate oil viscosity or viscosity break down. Oil starvation is literally a lack of oil available to the oil pump. It is a major problem on wet sump 308/328 cars but was corrected with the 348 and new models.

 

I’m no auto mechanic, but it would certainly seem like a bad idea to push the temp. to just below red-line and actually running it like that for laps.

Its like 20 rep squats in weight lifting where you’re close to passing out. Two more reps, and you may pass out.

It sounds like pushing the envelop of ability if you ask me.




_J

 

These cars are designed to be run on the track at the highest oil temperatures. In these conditions the oil will thin and the pressures will fall. This is normal operation. Oil used in these circumstances should be changed more frequently however.

Let me clarify that the statements above include that there has been no cam, bearing or cylinder wear issues in those cars.

aehaas

 

An aside: Quaker State oils will likely be advocated for USA Ferrari cars in the near future. Hopefully they will be easier to obtain than the Shell Helix Ultra that owners often insist is used in their cars.

aehaas

 

You just missed the chance to check with Dr. Lisa Lilley, that cute girl that runs the mobile oil lab for the F1 team......

I kid, I'm sure she was very busy packing and traveling with official duties, but that's a name for you, Mr. G.........her thoughts might be valuable. And her experience base with Shell products I am sure are second to none.....

Oh, her weakness is chocolate.........

 

Correct, Dr. Haas ...The Quaker State print ads are already running ...featuring the Ferrari F430 'kicking in the barn".....

Reminds me of the old Lightnin' Hopkins blues tune, I suppose......

 

Jim,

As you noted you weren't actually going over the red line oil temps, they were just "up there" and this was occurring in an admittedly maximum outside air temp condition on the racetrack.

Other than increasing your cooling capability (larger oil cooler) or the air flow thru the current cooler you aren't likely to have much effect on the actual oil temperature. So long as you haven't exceeded the maximum allowable temperatures for a good period of time you aren't going to do any damage to the engine.

More likey you would see some additional oil coking in the ring areas since that is where the oil gets the hottest, but that will take a good bit of time at temperature to happen and it doesn't sound like you were doing that. Oil does oxidize and if you get it really hot for a good period of time you probably should change it, but other than that I wouldn't get overly concerned about it. Also expect that the fine folks at the Factory probably have some "engineering margin" in that the whole engine isn't going to explode if you hit the oil temp red line on occasion, it is probably going to result in some additional wear if you abuse it for a prolonged period, but I doubt that you would do that.

They are probably going to suggest that if you get it that hot that you change the oil and go on with life....

 

Actually, I'd think about leaving the AC on and pumping the condensation from the AC onto the oil radiators.

That might aid in cooling on a hot track day.

 

That sounds like exactly the right approach. I

t's such a cool car and if the oil getting a touch warm when running flat out in the desert it the biggest problem with it, I'd have a big grin..... and bring a change of oil to the dessert race tracks from now on

 

All said I'm sure that it is a concern we'd all like to have.

 

Good approach, if you go the bigger cooler route you may be able to have one made up that is just a bit thicker with an extra row or two of tubes in it. That way you will slow down the flow in the cooler and give it more time to cool, as well as increase the surface area exposed to the air. With that approach you won't have to tear up ducts and make a mess of things. You should be able to make it a "drop in" installation. While a custom oil cooler sounds expensive, when you look at all the other stuff you would have to tear up to fit a standard cooler that is bigger, the custom one will probably look cheap..

 

Not sure the cost of an oil cooler is of much concern with this project!

Where does the hot air exit after the oil cooler? Get the air out, and it will find it's own way in.

 

I've sat down and formulated an oil for the P4/5. It consists of 3 parts castor oil, 2 parts Pétrus, 1 part Russian Standard, a dash of Lea & Perrins and a wedge of lime.

100% guaranteed to make your engine drunk with power!

 

Hi Jim,

Just another look at the situation, I was thinking...

How about requesting, SHELL or MOBIL or CASTROL etc., make up a special formula of oil for P4/5?

Have a few 55gal. drums of it on hand in your shop, and change it when you will be driving the car at the track of other high speed, hot weather conditions. Specialty oils are often used when extra protection is needed, without having to re-engineer sustems to meet a rare need. To mention a simple example of this, Chevrolet MANDATES, that MOBIL 1, be used in the CORVETTE ENGINES, otherwise an oil cooler and extra oil capicity, of 8-10 qts. sump capacity would be needed, to keep the engines alive at higher speeds and the warranty costs, within reason.

Jim, I think you need the expertise of an oil engineer, to look at the big picture, and find the right oil and lubricant requirements for P4/5. I would do this before I would send the car back to Pininfarina, for aerodynamic testing of the oil cooler and modifying, what you have. I think if you have the boys at Ferrari's engine shop, look at it, they will solve and deal with the problems you have. As someone may have mentioned, have the windshield washer nozzles aimed at the coolers, and give them a stream of water, when needed on track days.

Hope this helps the situation and open up some new thinking, on the problem.

Ciao...Paolo