News

P4 Wheeler Dealer

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by P4Replica, May 9, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Interesting, as I thought Jim got new ones cast for his P3/4 and I seem to remember Campagnolo too ???

    Also I have never heard of Dunlop making wheels, tyres and brakes but not wheels ???

    Pete
     
  4. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    I thought that was the rear uprights. But you could be right - that would figure.
    Pete.
    Apart from the Ferrari P3's - think Jaguar 'D' types and '62 F1 (stovepipe exhaust) BRM - which also used earlier styles of Dunlop 'mags'.
     
  5. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Yes I definately am sure he had the uprights recast ... but I think the wheels too. Maybe Jim will pipe in and help us ;)

    Thanks for the info regarding Dunlop mags, just learn't something.

    Pete
     
  6. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    In fact, Pete, thinking about it, the factory 275 and 330 P2's had them fitted too, back in '65. Probably prompted by the (spoked) wheel failure on Surtees' P2 at Daytona at the start of the season ....
     
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
    Advising Moderator

    Jul 20, 2003
    44,159
    SFPD
    Full Name:
    Dirty Harry
    FWIW, Enzo's hand-picked US Chinetti mechanic, Alberto Pedretti, not only accompanied 'Napolis on the trip to personally inspect & "approve" the P4 - but convinced Campagnolo to recast the size Ferrari went to when they converted two P4's to CanAm cars (350 Can Am). Incidentally, 'Napolis had to buy 2 sets at $3,000 each wheel, be it 11X15 front or 15X15 rear P4 wheel.

    To wrap up this Dunlop Wheeler Dealer Thread interruption:
    His P4 has Avon tires (0846 raced on Firestone - no longer made in original size).

    Hope that answered PSk's question... somewhat accurately.
    _
    As you were, Gents
     
  9. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Wax,

    Your answer confused me slightly, so I did a search and found where you got that information from. Here is Jim's full reply regarding the wheels:

    Thus P3's may have had Dunlop wheels and P4's Campanello ... I always thought they were the 5 spoke design and the same (?). Will go and have a look at some photos of P3's ;)

    Pete
     
  10. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Okay I think I have found a picture of a P3 sitting on these Dunlop wheels, so P4Replica is right, and I have learnt something else today!!! :D

    Pete

    (Note I stole the picture from the 'Pictures of P3's thread')
     
  11. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    Hmmm. Yes. Thank you for that input, Wax.
    I'm not quite sure how we got diverted onto the subject of Jim Glickenhaus' P4 .....
    Unless, of course, Pete thought when I wrote "..... as used on Norwood and other 'high-end' Ferrari P4 replicas" that I was alluding to Jim's car. Moi ? In fact that was not the case.
    I knew that Jim had two sets of the 350 Can-Am sized wheels, from reading (way back) the same thread that you quoted. I'd just forgotten that he had them specially re-cast. Besides, I suspect this wheel on eBay is one of the large batch of original width P4 Campagnolo rear wheels, remanufactured by Tecnomagnesio back in the early 90's, at the peak of the replica 'boom' - Bob Norwood alone ordered 10 sets for his run of aluminium bodied P4 replicas.
    No, actually, I was thinking more along the lines of Harold Javetz's Jim Carpenter-built P4 (#23), based on a 330GT (SN 6067GT) or Jean-Paul Gauban's Daytona V-12 powered car (#3), both of which also use these 'repro' wheels. See photos of both below and more photos of J-P's car at: http://www.carclassic.com/html/DE42.htm
    Incedentally, both these cars are for sale - the former for the bargain price tag of around $100K ....
     
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    .... And that too, Pete !
     
  14. P4Racer

    P4Racer Rookie

    Dec 18, 2003
    28
    UK
    Full Name:
    max wakefield
  15. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    I did email the seller to ask, Max - but got no reply so far. I would assume it's a 15" x 12J, as fitted to the Norwood P4's. And cast in aluminium rather than magnesium, too. I see the reserve price has already been met at $450 though, so compared to JG's magnesium 15 inchers @ $3K per wheel, it's a proverbial steal !
     
  16. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    Pete.
    Here's a better one, in colour - a 'pre-race' photo of #0844 at the Spa 1000Km's in '66 (the eventual winner, with Parkes / Scarfiotti driving). Note the Firestone tyres on the Dunlop wheels. I guess Ferrari's tyre 'contract' with Dunlop must just have expired !

    I'll also post it to the 'Anybody got pictures of a 330P3 ?' thread, just in case anybody is still viewing it .....
     
  17. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    Quite simply because I thought that P3's sat on the 5 spoke wheels like Jim's P4. That is all. I was just using Jim's car as a reference.

    Pete
     
  18. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    Of course another P4 replica using these 'repro' Campagnolo wheels is Max Theiler's 365GT/4 powered device - frequently seen at European venues, with plenty of photos of it posted on the 'Net. This one taken at the Nurburgring 'Oldtimer' meeting in 2000.
     
  19. P4Racer

    P4Racer Rookie

    Dec 18, 2003
    28
    UK
    Full Name:
    max wakefield

    They are 13" wide. which is no good for my stable. Do you know anyone else knocking these mag wheels out??

    Max
     
  20. P4Racer

    P4Racer Rookie

    Dec 18, 2003
    28
    UK
    Full Name:
    max wakefield

    is this the man that tries to say his car is not based on a kit? It seems to be completely kit based, other than the wheels and the rear deck?

    Maybe i'm wrong.
     
  21. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    You're not wrong, Max. According to other P4 replica owners who have spoken to Max Theiler, he insists his car is not a replica, but a PROTOTYPE ! It is, as you stated though, obviously based on (modified) Noble P4 bodywork. IMHO he has made a bit of a 'pig's ear' of trying to convert the rear deck to Spyder configuration as well !
     
  22. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    Max.
    See below another pic from the same meeting - Nurburgring 'Oldtimer' 2000. Note the front 'number (license) plate'. The car is not actually road registered (in Switzerland) - or so I have been reliably informed.
     
  23. P4Racer

    P4Racer Rookie

    Dec 18, 2003
    28
    UK
    Full Name:
    max wakefield

    Nice to note the Noble access hatch to the Master Cylinders. And no air-splitter in the nose. Though it is prettier from the front than the back, which looks as though Franco Sabbaro designed it.

    Anyway, good luck to him, it looks as though he is allowed to race it.

    it seems quite quiet on the Pheonix 4 (P4) front. Or maybe I have been missing the threads.

    Max
     
  24. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    Max.
    In fact, the cabin on the Sbarro P4 is cut away much shorter than even on Max Theiler's car. It's almost chopped off flush with the rear bulkhead window - and gives the impression more of a 250LM's rear deck than a P4's.
    See small photo below.

    Er, I think you may just have re-ignited some interest with your last post, Max.
    But No - you haven't missed anything.
     
  25. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    This is the problem with some replica owners ... and a real pity because it brings a bad attitude from many towards them. Max is obviously a loser IMO :D

    And many wonder why the history of a Ferrari is complicated ... ;)

    Pete
     
  26. P4Replica

    P4Replica Formula 3

    Nov 4, 2003
    1,291
    S.W. England
    Full Name:
    Paul S.
    Yes, Pete ....
    But MOST of us 'P4 replica owners' know what our cars are, and don't claim them to be anything else.
    I always refer to my own car as a NOBLE P4 replica. I don't even mention the 'F' word (Ferrari, that is - not Fake)

    And as far as your comment directed towards Max (Theiler) .... Despite the fact that he holds the opinion that his (modified) Noble bodied car is superior to other Noble P4 replicas, which he believes gives him the right to call it a 'prototype' if he wants to - it is, after all, Ferrari 365GT/4 V-12 powered ..... I guess that's his perogative.
    In that respect, it makes him no worse than someone 'restoring' an ex-David Piper P4 'fake' and calling it #0846 !
    Max also just happens to be the President of the Ferrari Club of Switzerland. So NOT such a loser, I don't think !
     
  27. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    It is not a prototype of a P3 or 4!. He is making out that part of the car was built by Ferrari as a prototype to making the 'production' P3/4. That it is very clearly not, as they would definitely not have used a 365GT/4 motor as they were not even around back then. Yes he can call it what he likes, but he is trying to give his REPLICA more history than it has.

    Jim has always stated that he thinks it is 846, or that some parts of the car originated from 846. That is all, and there is one hell of a lot more original P3/4 Ferrari in Jim's car than Max's.

    Why?, just because he is a president of a car club! WTF, when does that make a person exempt from being a loser?. If Max is trying to claim his car is a Ferrari built prototype of a P3/4 then he is a fraud and a complete loser IMO, president of an 'insignificant' car club or not. Lets remember we are talking about a car club, not the president of a country or something important ... :D

    Pete

    ps: I actually think Max is calling his car a prototype 'tongue in cheek', ie. a bit of a laugh, and that is all fine and dandy ... but I do not know the context of this prototype comment ...
     
  28. P4Racer

    P4Racer Rookie

    Dec 18, 2003
    28
    UK
    Full Name:
    max wakefield

    Hey hey, easy with the word Max here. I also share the same name and a moody P4 replica, and a JG repplica as well. Im not the president of anything.

    I suspect the Thiller (?) car makes the most of this totally nonsense history to enable him to race at events. I think we can be safe in the knowledge that any real P4's were discovered long ago. I am not so sure about the normal response. "I am rich therefore I am honest". to extend that suggests that poor people are dishonest. I think more often that "behind the fortune lies a crime".

    But it was quite fun when people who knew nothing about anything came thumping their drums. We should get back to that.
     

Share This Page