Paint swirl question

In order remove the swirl marks you need to remove enough paint that the lowest level of the swirls (micro fine scratches) is equal to the rest of the paint. That is, you most "shave" the high spots down so that the paint is level. The best way (some would say only way) to do with is with a high speed direct drive buffer, proper pad, and proper polish. Of course, this opens up a new can of worms. Most body shops will polish you car this way, and 9 times of out 10 it will look worse because they have no clue on how to properly "finish down" with a rotary polisher so they use oils to make it look good. Months later the swirls "come back" as the oils bleed out.
So to properly remove swirls and bring the surface to a high gloss is a multi step process that requires "cutting" the paint, then burnishing it to a high gloss to remove any imperfections caused by the cutting.

A ROB (random orbital buffer) such as Griots or a Porter Cable will remove paint, but the oscillating action usually acts to round the sharp edges of the marring (making them less visible) but not completely removing them. Now this perfectly okay, but over time the swirls are more likely to "reappear" as they edges sharpen. If you want to do this yourself, try a more aggressive pad (Lake Country's Orange pad) and a more aggressive polish (Menzerna SIP 3.02) to increase the action of your ROB, then use a final polish and pad such as Lake Country's White pad and a finishing polish (Meznerna 106ff) to bring the paint to a very high gloss. Technique is very important with a ROB, working a small section, using moderate pressure, and slow arm speed until the polish "breaks down". This is a safe way to get 90 percent of the results of the rotary high speed buffer with out having many of the risks.

The most important thing to remember is how swirls are created and take the necessary steps to avoid inducing more swirls into the soft Ferrari paint.

 

We may or may not be talking apples and oranges--swirls to me are a larger scratch than spider webbing. The car I am working now is a black AMG. Have spent lots of hours working from course to medium to medium to fine compound, as I have 85000 miles of wear on the paint. I have dealt with the deeper scratches, getting all but a few out that were too deep to go that far, then over it again with a finer grit, etc, until the last step being Griot's #4. It looks beautiful in anything but bright sun, but then I can see spider webbing. Talked to Griots and they said something similar to what I think you did, in terms of going back to a courser grit, but I don't see how that can be the issue, as I have spent plenty of time with course enough grit to take out most of the bad scratches, before going finer and finer. Seems like there must be a final step that will take it out completely--there's not far too go from where it is now. Are you suggesting that Meznerna 106ff is the answer at this point?

 

That is a very unique problem you are having. As you seem well aware, (I use spiderwebbing/swirls interchangeably) swirls/spiderwebbing is general very MINOR marring (usually less then top 1/100 of the clear coat is affected). If you removed "deeper scratches" then you certainly removed the offending level of paint that had the minor marring. After removal, is just a matter of smoothing out the "new" top level of paint to a perfect finish (which is where the problem is, as you are obviously enough paint. Now it’s a matter of perfect clean up).

Depending on the year, MB moved to a ceramic based clear coat, or SCR (scratch resistant clear coat). These finishes are very hard and need fairly "sharp" abrasives to actually polish the paint. Menzerna's SCR line (SIP and 106ff) where commissioned by Mercedes Benz to work with the new clear coats. I would imagine that when you removed the scratches, you needed a fairly aggressive polish/pad (I am not overly familiar with Griots compounds/polishes) combination. This probably took a long time to get the removal, and in the mean time added the swirl marks. Despite your best efforts to take this to a higher level (by using finer grits and pads and refining the finish until you achieve your goal) the Griot's polishes may not have enough ommphh remove the previous steps marring because the clear coat is designed to resist scratching, marring, ect... So you are left with a highly polished surface that still has the remains of the original compounding steps. Does this make sense? Again I am guessing because I cannot see your paint and going on your description.

To paraphrase, in order to remove the scratches, you had to use something aggressive over a period. The result was the swirl marks you now see. Unfortunately, because of the SCR-Cerma-clear paint (I'm assuming that you have this paint), you where not able to remove the resulting swirl marks, but only to polish the surface to a shine.

I would try Menzerna SIP (from autogeek.net) with a Lake Country Orange CCS pad. This polish will have enough ommphh to remove the swirls, but with a ROB polisher, may need 3-4 passes until the swirls are gone. The most important thing to remember is the technique, you need to work each section for a long time with slow are speed to make sure the abrasives fully break down and polishes out the marring they induce). If you stop polishing too soon, then you will have marring. It’s been a while since I used a PC, but you want to work the polish for up to 2 minutes at a slow rate, overlapping before wiping clean.

Inspect after each application until the swirls are gone (they may even come out on the first pass). After you are happy with the surface (or see no further improvement after an application) then switch to the LC White CCS pad and the Menzerna 106ff. This polish is designed to remove any trace micro marring from the SIP/Orange Pad combo (which there should be little to none of) and "jewel" SCR paint to the highest polish gloss level. Again work this polish for a while, until it turns opaque and is fully broken down. The black with be amazing!!!

If you have any questions shoot me a PM and I will give you my number and you can pick my brain at anytime.

Edit: The other possible scenario is that you are not working your polishes long enough to break them down fully. With out sounding redundant, the ROB requires a long time to work and very slow arm speed. It is a function of the pressure you apply to the head of the pad (5-10lbs of pressure works best from memory) and the time you give it to work against the surface. Make sure you fully breaking the abrasives out.

Todd

 

Thanks, Todd. I really appreciate the time you spent with a really good answer. I will try what you said and let you know. May take me a while, but I will get at it this year anyway.

 

^ Not a problem Phil! Let me know how it turns out

 

your informative threads are really so interesting- i look forward to reading them .Can you tell me what you suggest if I want take off Swax from my car ? Dove ?

I applied it to one area incorrectly and it has left some marks - so I would like try it again.

 

Followed your advice, and this did get rid of spiderwebbing!! I really appreciate your help. Really impressed with the Meznerna products. Now I have to decide which wax/polymer to use. It is a 92,000 mile car that I polished partly to get thru the learning curve so I would not mess up the exotics. Have the following in the garage now: Maguire's Gold paste wax, Griot's Best of Show liquid wax, and a box full of Zaino products. Was planning to use the Zaino on the 360 (red 2004) after I go over it, but as I have not used Zaino, not sure if I want to learn on the 360. Seeing as the CLK55 is older, on the one hand, the Gold would be a lot less effort than Zaino, (don't have much experience with the Griot's either), but then I have worked long and hard to polish the Merc to where it looks great, so don't want to compromise too much on it.....just another of life's little quandaries. Todd, what is your suggestion? (CLK is a 2001, black paint.) (also have an '03 DB7 to do soon, midnite blue)

 

Just an interjection. If you want to do what Todd can do, get Todd to do it!

He is a professional to say the least. He has much experience in working with all the products he has mentioned. Us on the other hand do not. I find it very difficult to attain the results that Todd did on my cars with the products he uses. He just blows my mind with the textbook results he comes up with.

This is just my opinion, but I find if I use good quality layman's products that are from a reputable company, the results are pretty good. Nothing like what Todd can do, but for general cleaning until Todd returns, it is acceptable.

 

As you all can see..Todd's "Da Man"..thanks again, Todd!!

 

I use Zaino and microcloths to elliminate swirls. My first experience with swirls was on my dad's Pontiac woody in 1948 with TurtleWax and extended to every vehicle I've been around and everything I tried, whether electrical or chemical, until I met Zaino. Hows that for an endorsement?

 

TODD--(see your original comments below) Followed your advice, and this did get rid of spiderwebbing!! I really appreciate your help. Really impressed with the Meznerna products. Now I have to decide which wax/polymer to use. It is a 92,000 mile car that I polished partly to get thru the learning curve so I would not mess up the exotics. Have the following in the garage now: Maguire's Gold paste wax, Griot's Best of Show liquid wax, and a box full of Zaino products. Was planning to use the Zaino on the 360 (red 2004) after I polish it, but as I have not used Zaino, not sure if I want to learn on the 360. Seeing as the CLK55 is older, on the one hand, the Gold would be a lot less effort than Zaino, (don't have much experience with the Griot's either), but then I have worked long and hard to polish the Merc to where it looks great, so don't want to compromise too much on it.....just another of life's little quandaries. Todd, what is your suggestion? (CLK is a 2001, black paint.) (also have an '03 DB7 to do soon, midnite blue)


Originally Posted by tropicaldetail
In order remove the swirl marks you need to remove enough paint that the lowest level of the swirls (micro fine scratches) is equal to the rest of the paint. That is, you most "shave" the high spots down so that the paint is level. The best way (some would say only way) to do with is with a high speed direct drive buffer, proper pad, and proper polish. Of course, this opens up a new can of worms. Most body shops will polish you car this way, and 9 times of out 10 it will look worse because they have no clue on how to properly "finish down" with a rotary polisher so they use oils to make it look good. Months later the swirls "come back" as the oils bleed out.
So to properly remove swirls and bring the surface to a high gloss is a multi step process that requires "cutting" the paint, then burnishing it to a high gloss to remove any imperfections caused by the cutting.

A ROB (random orbital buffer) such as Griots or a Porter Cable will remove paint, but the oscillating action usually acts to round the sharp edges of the marring (making them less visible) but not completely removing them. Now this perfectly okay, but over time the swirls are more likely to "reappear" as they edges sharpen. If you want to do this yourself, try a more aggressive pad (Lake Country's Orange pad) and a more aggressive polish (Menzerna SIP 3.02) to increase the action of your ROB, then use a final polish and pad such as Lake Country's White pad and a finishing polish (Meznerna 106ff) to bring the paint to a very high gloss. Technique is very important with a ROB, working a small section, using moderate pressure, and slow arm speed until the polish "breaks down". This is a safe way to get 90 percent of the results of the rotary high speed buffer with out having many of the risks.

The most important thing to remember is how swirls are created and take the necessary steps to avoid inducing more swirls into the soft Ferrari paint.

Followed your advice, and this did get rid of spiderwebbing!! I really appreciate your help. Really impressed with the Meznerna products. Now I have to decide which wax/polymer to use. It is a 92,000 mile car that I polished partly to get thru the learning curve so I would not mess up the exotics. Have the following in the garage now: Maguire's Gold paste wax, Griot's Best of Show liquid wax, and a box full of Zaino products. Was planning to use the Zaino on the 360 (red 2004) after I go over it, but as I have not used Zaino, not sure if I want to learn on the 360. Seeing as the CLK55 is older, on the one hand, the Gold would be a lot less effort than Zaino, (don't have much experience with the Griot's either), but then I have worked long and hard to polish the Merc to where it looks great, so don't want to compromise too much on it.....just another of life's little quandaries. Todd, what is your suggestion? (CLK is a 2001, black paint.) (also have an '03 DB7 to do soon, midnite blue)

 

I have used Meguiars #9 swirl remover with great results. It is hard to do but worth the work always polish back and forth never circular by hand

 

Just remember #9 is full of oils & fillers and very little if any abrasives so the swirls may re appear.

 

Hello, I really like all the advise Todd has provided. My Mondial's front hood is covered with water spots. I buffed the area with polishing compound and it looked better, but I could still see some of the water sports, very faintly, Should I wet sand the hood with 2000 grit paper and buff it.
Should I wet sand and spray with clear?
Thanks for the advise
Charles

 

I am so happy to hear you are satisfied with the results. Because Zaino is a highly reflective sealant it will highlight or amplify an defects in the paints surface, but once the paint is polished to perfection, it is easy to use. I will PM you my phone number so you can call with any questions.

 

I agree with Ken LOL

 

You can use a light abrasive polish (if you have a machine) or you can wash with a high alkaline soap (like dawn). First I would try applying the SWAX wet, working it in lightly and wiping it off while its wet. The solvents in the product "should" remix with the existing product and smooth it out.

 

I have found that #9 does "fill" slightly as well, but it will correct very light defects. I really don't like products like this because you are always guessing as to weather you removed to the defects or filled them in. I recommend wiping the paint with 91% rubbing alochol or a prep-solvent type product after polishing to remove oils and inspect your work.

 

Hi Charles,

What type of polishes, pads, machine are you using? Do you have any experience with wetsanding? Have you measured the paint thickness?

 

Hi Todd, I used a wool pad with 3M polishing compound, then I used a name brand carnuba wax. I have wet sanded paint primer prior to painting on other cars. I have never colored sanded paint to repair paint problems. I will try the white vineger wipe first. If that removes the stains,what should I do next? I have a sander/polisher that looks like the grinder type machine(with the wool pad) and I have the big round buffing machine with the foam and wool pads.
Thanks Todd,
Charles