OK Russ, now you've really got me thinking...when is your car going to hit the dyno with the new cams? I'm looking at my dyno curve and realizing that I have a mis-match between my engine flow prolife (probably caused by the cams) and the blower flow profile. If I shift the torque peak up 6000-1000 rpm, the power should go up 40-50hp (2x the 20-30 you expect because of the boost)and more importantly my peak boost will will drop from 22 to something like 16....and that would mean I can change pulleys and spin the blower faster because I already know 22 psi is ok....now I just need to figue out if simply switching to 3.2 cams will do it or if I really need to have something ground...I may need to give Laurie a call and see whast see whats to sell me.
Ahh, I just called Web-cam but couldn't get tham to put Laurie on the phone and the women I was speaking to thought that I really needed to send in my cams so they could profile them. I assured her that she allready has the proile, she checked and sure enough, but she still couldn't recommend anything until she she's my cams for some undisclosed reason...I told her to hold that thought because there was no way I was ripping apart my engine until I knew what the plan was....so we reached an impass for now it looks like.
I got the same response and am now waiting to get my blanks...oh the pain of sitting in the Minnesota winter without even being able to drive my car. Hopefully I can find a set in the next few weeks here and get them off to Web.
Blanks are availible from Frank Capo at Modena Engineering, These don't need to be welded up like all others. paul
Not for a bit - I'm dropping the car off with James at Norwood's (Board Sponsor and all) for the installation while I am in Iraq this summer with a Rumsfeld Travel Agency Tour Group. Guys - Send me a pm with your phone # and will try to have Laurie give you a call when I talk to her next. I think the pass word for Laurie is 'yes' when the front desk asks if they have your cams yet... best rt
I down loaded a form from their web site, I'm going to fax it over and see if that gets a responce. I almost thing that just going to 328 cams will mostly do it....I need to think a bit and an expert opinion is alway good.
These are brand new custom built by Frank in Australia, I spoke with him last week and I beleive with the Australian exchange rate they were around $3000 US for all 4.....but I am just guessing as it was a casual conversation so please don't quote me. He will grind them to your specs but chat with him because he is brilliant when it comes to this stuff (not that you are not). Call him at 011 61 03 9782 4420 (16 hours ahead est). His assistants name is Kim, tell him you spoke with me. Frank's history with the 308 is amazing. Paul
Thanks Paul...I'm not sure what I will end up doing, but I am moving in 2 months, so whatever it is, it won't happen until after that....but I'm pretty sure new cams are in order. I think I can up the hp and the lower the peak boost quite a bit, which to me is a win-win.....oh I can hear 600hp calling to me Have you decided what you are going to run fro cams?
No problem. I am laying low on the public disclosure of my project as I am sort of close to completion(been putting in 6 hour days on it for the past 3 weeks), hope to be around 350+ hp. Russ says 385 based on his calc's but we will see. e-mail if you wish. Paul [email protected]
If you haven't seen it, let me assure everyone that Paul's engine is also the most spectacular appearing 3 liter Ferrari V-8, ever. No kidding. And from the looks of the headers+cams+runner length+48IDAs+velocity stacks, it may well be the best sounding ever as well. No kidding. I can't wait. Paul Airey said that when he added P-6 longer duration and higher lift cams to his 308, the exhaust sound deepened. Sound is important part of the experience to me. Anyone have a similar experience? Speaking of sound, while I mostly use a stock 308 airbox with K&N on mine, here's something completely different (since no photos for a while): shots of the Mondial 3.2 with Pierce Filters and with Superformance velocity stacks just for a little color...now THAT's a sound! Webers rock! best to all rt Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
In order to take some advantage of the newly discovered better breathing airbox and Webers, Here are the semi-finalist intake cam profile recommendations from Webcam for a Ferrari 4 valve V-8 engine for primarily street use. I also have heard that 4v cams focusing on more lift and slightly longer durations this ARE actually also running in 3.0 QV Bosch K-jet engines against the conventional 'reversion incompatability' wisdom as well. (e.g. .360 total lift, 226 duration @.050) They are recommending keeping the stock exhaust for lower end torque. Compared showing total lift and lift at durations are the stock 3.2 4v cam, a stock 3.0 2v Euro carb cam, an Elgin Cam recommended grind, a Webcam recommended grind, and a Lamborghini Diabolo SV qv grind (also recommended as a possibility). It's my understanding that the stock springs will be ok, and it seems that the head max flows out at about the .35 - .36 valve lift range. The idea is to get the max amout of time open in the effective range ('area under the curve'). Everyone says that small changes in 4V cams translate to much larger changes in flow character when compared to the 2v. Lift......3.2(.348)..Carb(.349)...Elgin(.364). .WEB(.368)..Diab(.381) .020.....245 .....260 .... 257 ..... 261 .. ..266 .050.....222 .....240 ..... 238 ..... ..235 ....240 .100.....200 .....208 .......... ..210 .. . 218 Right now I am leaning toward the WEBs to minimize low end loss to durations on the street, but also is really breathing well ahead of the stock cam earlier. I am happy to listen intently to other folk's ideas and experience on this. Target is 305 - 315 hp and 230+ ft-lbs. On a side note, how do more aggressive cams affect the sound? Many thanks rt
I am waiting to hear back from Elgin cams for some information on my MB I am tinkering on. They admitted, and another shop confirmed, that they couldnt do well with a MB cam. The shop that worked with them said the cames were centerless ground, anyway, seems odd a big cam shop couldnt make them work. The shop said the several cars they tried wouldnt idle, needed the cams brought back to stock. Anyway, was just giving a heads up that maybe there is a better source for cam work.
FYI, I know Russ had a terrible time with Dema. He did an excellent job repairing two of the lobes on my P6s. So, two more data points with different experiences.
Yes, let's just say I had a bad experience with Dema and am still waiting for my cams now over a year. For you K-jet guys, I did finally talk to a mechanic who put a set of the higher lift sl longer duration cams ( .360 total lift, 226 duration @.050) in a Kjet qv. He said that they worked quite well
For the two of you still following this... Airline ticket bought, and will drive the car up to Norwood's in Dallas this Friday to drop off the car to have the new intake cams put in and the suspension tweaked while I am in Iraq. Talked to both Norwood's and Carobu (both the gold standard): will go with the more moderate intake profile and use stock exhaust cams to keep my already nice torque curve (240 ft-lbs). So will be using the .368 lift and 235 degrees at .050. Hoping for a solid torquey and reliable 300 - 310 HP, 240 - 250 ft-lbs. Pretty good for a 3.2 on street gas. Cams will be done by Laurie at Webcam as Dema Elgin at Elgin Cams seems to have irrepairably ruined or lost the cams I sent him more than a year ago and is still not returning my emails asking for them back. You be your own judge, but I cannot recommend that kind of shoddy unprofessional customer treatment. Will be adding an adjustable perch/rebound Koni shock to the front (already have at the rear) and increasing both both spring rates, r>f, and use some of the alignment settings from one of our favorite Aussies, Crocodile Carl, in the other Mondial suspension thread for a bit crisper response. And as an added bonus, more insufferable posts, chassis dynos and A/F plots by yours truly as I futz with more whimsical timing and Carb jetting upon my return. My car will perhaps be a bit anti-climatic as by September, Paul will have launched his over the top 48 IDA-carburreted, full race cam, high compression qv 308. But I'll still be able to put family in the back seat... Had thought about doing the ceramic headers, but will do that later. Any last minute suggestion on cam profiles welcome! best Russ
Yeah, good luck! How do I find you when I have a problem....besides taking a right at Baghdad paul When do you leave?
Russ - Good luck in Iraq! Come home safe. I am heading down the same path as you with WebCam grinding a set for the 348 this fall. Can't wait to hear your experiences both in Iraq and with the car.
Actually, a bit north of Baghdad, near Samarra. Don't expect to find too many 'Good Samaritans' left, though... Thanks all - I really appreciate it. Looks like I'm leaving next week sometime. Will post contact info before I leave. My goal is to come back with a piece of Uday's Ferrari (Just kidding, Mr Rumsfeld!). John - do you have the stock 348 lift/durations/timing or the grind you are going to use? I know the 348 head is supposed to outflow the 3.2, but still would like to see the cam specs to compare. I won't be here to watch the dialing in, but imagine the 348 overlap/lobe centers would be good start. Need to be careful with the jetting, as Philip's experience has shown as you widen the overlap, the accuracy of the exhaust A/F sensor goes down at lower rpm. Pierce said that there should be minimal if any changes, however. Will keep the factory 34 degree max ignition advance, as the combustion chamber and flame front propagation should be similar. Again, appreciate the thoughts your tech section bud, rt
Dropped the car off at Norwood's yesterday to have the .367 235 @ 050 intake cams put in. The computer dyno after normalized against the actual Dynojet chassis dyno, predicts that this change in cam profile on the existing engine configuration will have a max hp of 319 hp @ 7500 rpm. This is with a lobe center angle of 106 degrees and intake center of 114 degrees. While there is a torque hit, it catches up to current at 4000 rpm. Of course, I don't really believe that much from a 3.2 engine with a 9.2 compression ratio, but it is hopeful. Now, if I can lose the spare tire weight (mine and the cars) as well as the new lighter Eibach springs and Koni shocks, lighter muffler, the carbs are lighter than the FI, the stereo amp... Dynos to follow in some months.
Got a note from Norwood's today - cams are being re-profiled at WEBCAM. The original stock 3.2 intakes were measured at: .346 Lift on both cams, 224° of duration checked at .050 As posted before, will look at going to .368 lift, with 235° @ .050 more soon best from Babylon rt Image Unavailable, Please Login
Russ Hope all is well. Good to see the project is coming along. Philip P.S., tell James that I'll buy him a cup of tea if he can really remove the cams while leaving the airbox on! (And, yes I did see the airbox nuts were off!)
