Please explain to me a $111,000 355 | Page 9 | FerrariChat

Please explain to me a $111,000 355

Discussion in '348/355' started by Ferrari Fanatic, Jan 29, 2019.

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  1. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2017
    6,200
    355's are unique animals because of the varying factors that contribute to value. For example, possibly no other model has been as heavily molested than the 355. It is rare to find one that hasn't been modified or altered. Also, though this has been healthily debated, there's the issue of headers and guides (pre late 88). Then, of course there's the transmission issue (gated or F1). Finally, given the expense of engine out service, this can play a role in the value of a car - not simply if it's been done or not, but more importantly WHO's done it. These main points don't even get into miles and condition.

    When I bought my car I wanted a factory correct, unmolested car (yes, including the headers). I wanted it pure. I also had zero interest in dealing with the whole valve guide issue, so I only focused on '99 cars. My car had to be red/tan, a berlinetta, have very low miles and be in absolutely exceptional condition. The transmission, though a big issue for some, wasn't that big a deal to me. As for the sticky parts, some on my car were in okay shape, others seemed fine. Still, I had every piece removed and sent to Dave for refinishing. All done. Even though it didn't necessarily need a major service, I had it done anyhow because my tech (Tony at Scuderia Performante) knows how one takes and engine out and how it should be put back in (exactly how it was done at the factory).

    Ultimately, when it comes to 355's, all these factors on a particular car will determine its value. Smart buyers who have the means will be wise to consider these things into their evaluation. In the end, the very select cars that have a desirable color spec, are well cared for, well maintained, in superb condition and are not loaded with modifications will command well above the average market.
     
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  2. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Other than the carbon fiber overlays I don't see much in the pictures that separate these cars other than marketing (number and quality of pictures) and that one looks like a bumble bee.
     
  3. Flavio_C

    Flavio_C Formula 3
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    Why useless? The first link is of a well-known Ferrari specialist in southern Germany that used to charge 2500 euros for a major. The link with the prices is not working but if you email them they will confirm.

    The price on the second link already includes 19% of MwSt, which is the German sales tax. Ricambi on the other hand will add up 9% or so, right?

    The third link is exactly the same service kit of the second link (same firm) but now including "all the labor, parts, and required lubricants". It is indeed a complete major.

    Indeed, the last site does not describe in details the parts, but in Germany reputable garages do not do "half jobs" or save on parts that might indispensable.

    Again, as mentioned by another poster above, prices in the UK are even cheaper. To me in the US they take more hours to do the job and charge much more per hour.

    Not a Ferrari but in the USA you won't spend less than 2500 dollars to change the rod bearings of a BMW M5 V10. In Germany it costs only 1500 euros.
     
  4. RRRREDRVR

    RRRREDRVR Karting

    Jul 28, 2004
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    1. When F355's first appeared, they were bringing premium $$$. Many were sold new as high as $250K even though sticker price was well below that.
    2. Yes, this point is debatable. The typical development cycle is around 5 years, however the 355 is based on design elements of the 348, which began well before Enzo departed in 1988. While I don't have one here to confirm it, I was under the impression the Ferrari Press Kit for the F355 alluded to the fact it was one of the last cars he worked on personally.
     
  5. RRRREDRVR

    RRRREDRVR Karting

    Jul 28, 2004
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    OBD 1 is diagnosed by monitoring blinking lights from the ECU. The embedded diagnostics is very limited and nowhere near as helpful as OBD II. HOWEVER, you also don't need an appropriated diagnostic tool to replace a clutch, for example. It can be harder to smog, but you can fix anything on an OBD I 355 without a computer. Not so on later models.
     
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  6. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Nothing in first link about price other than your comment. So, hearsay as far as I'm concerned.

    2nd link parts for at $2050:

    3rd link

    How do you conclude this includes all the parts in the list from the 2nd link? Reads that the change belts and fluids for $2850. Nothing about seals, tensioners, plugs, fuel filter....

    4th link:

    Again, no list of parts. Advertised as a $2700 belt change.

    You are telling me that there are 3 places that install $2000US worth or parts (your number from 2nd link, not mine), plus fluids and labor for a total between $2700 and $2850 US. Let's assume $300 for fluids. That leaves a max of $550 for labor. I'm going to assume these guys are faster than Superman, drink pure caffeine, are high on meth and get it done in 20 hrs: R&R motor, cam covers, cams, cam seals, install new tensioners, plugs, filters, time cams, change fluids, recharge the ac, etc, etc, etc all for $27.50 an hour? Sorry, until I see an itemized bill listing labor hours, rate and parts used, I ain't buying it. And I bet I'm not the only one.
     
  7. ShineKen

    ShineKen F1 World Champ
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    Fast Cars, who is probably one of the more highly reputable indies in socal quoted me $6k. This includes a water pump rebuild. A clutch job if you need it. They also warranty their work. 40 hours of labor if I recall speaking with them over the phone. Sounds like a very fair price.
     
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  8. Ferrari Fanatic

    Ferrari Fanatic Formula 3

    Apr 2, 2003
    1,317
    SoCal
    There is a new 355 auction on BAT.

    Original owner, 28k mile, Grigio Titanio, Spyder.

    Will see in next 6 days if it goes RNM, or if it sells and what price point it hits.

    If it goes for 75k then people will say: see that’s my point, a 15k mile 355 is worth way more. LOL.

    Another 355 that was an almost twin of this car went RNM. Didn’t even sell. ( Only bid to 62.5k).

    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1998-ferrari-f355-spider-7/
     
  9. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2017
    6,200
    It will be interesting, though I wouldn’t call 15k low miles. Also, less than desirable color for most.
     
  10. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    Sure it is :)
     
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  11. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Looks like this it the year for selling 355 spiders.
     
  12. Culprit

    Culprit Formula Junior
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    The blue interiors tend to be a tough sell... If this one hits 6 figures too we'll know we've entered a new era of pricing :)
     
  13. Mbutner

    Mbutner Formula 3

    Aug 11, 2005
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    I think this group suffers from too much knowledge of the F355 market. While the rest of the world marches on buying $75k pickup trucks, and new Mercedes easily crest in to 6 figures, I don't think a modern classic Ferrari fetching 100k should drop jaws. Have F355's been "cheap" for a decade or so? Sure. Who's to say they stay that way.

    For my money's worth, it's the car I've always wanted and after I drooled over the modern stuff I come back to. When the time comes (hopefully the next year or two) I'll pick up an example for hopefully less than $100k, send it to the guys at Bradan and have them fix whatever needs fixing. After that I'll enjoy that car till I die.
     
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  14. Steve355F1

    Steve355F1 F1 World Champ
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    Aug 26, 2011
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    15,000 miles on a twenty year-old car is not low miles? Seriously?

    I've done 19,000 miles in the last seven months in my "other" car.
    Admittedly I've recently been doing a lot more long distance driving than usual, but even so surely an average of 750 miles / year is extremely low for any car.
     
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  15. Flavio_C

    Flavio_C Formula 3
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    Because the third link is from exactly the same company of the 2nd link (only the parts). Perhaps you are not used to German culture: they don't cut corners or don't do a job if it's not for doing the best that needs to be done. No respected German indy would do a "major" changing the cam belts but not changing tensioners and seals, it would be very stupid savings.

    First of all, you are wrongly assuming that their cost for parts is exactly the same of a US vendor or indy. Germany is the world logistics hub for car parts so they tend to get better prices. Probably when Ferrari parts are exported to the USA they first go through a distributor in Germany.

    Second, bringing an outside comparison here: why do you think they assemble iPhones in China, just because of the costs? No, they do so because Chineses are way more fast in doing manual labor than people from other countries. In Germany mechanics work less hours per week but when they do they work much more efficiently.

    The difference in price between the 2nd and the 3rd link is 800 euros. The cost of oil is probably 90 euros tops, so you have ~700 euros for labor. Let's assume that the garage owner takes 50% of that and the mechanic doing the job takes the other 50%; also let's assume that it takes 3-full days of work. So the mechanic earns 50%*700/3*22 = 2566 euros per month. I bet that is the average salary of a mechanic in Germany.

    Still, prices in the UK are even lower, look at this:

    http://www.supercarclinic.co.uk/ferrari-specialist-service-repair-manchester-northwest/

    https://www.thesupercarrooms.co.uk/ferrari-service
     
  16. Dave rocks

    Dave rocks F1 World Champ
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    No, they do not.
     
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  17. johnk...

    johnk... F1 World Champ
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    Well, no offence, but it was your post that indicated parts similar to those I posted from Ricambi cost nominally the same in the USA and on that Germany ebay site.

    Ok, German mechanics which work more efficiently and do so for the equivalent of $27.50 US? If that's what they charge, what to the mechanics get paid? I didn't realize the Germany paid 3rd world wages. I already cut the hours to 20, about 1/2 of what a US shop will charge.
    I think you are missing something. My estimate of $300 was not just for motor oil. It included motor oil, transmission oil, power steering fluid, coolant, brake fluid and AC recharge. You can't going to get that for $90 euros. Also, I doubt that the mechanic get 50% of the of the hourly rate. Overhead generally runs about a factor of 3 for a business in the US. But let me take your numbers.

    2566 x 12 = 30972/yr

    30972/2080 = 14.89 /hr or $16.92US/hr. So if you use you estimate of 50% a US shop should be charging $34/hr. If you use mine, $52/hr. The cheapest labor rate for a Ferrari shop I know of, and that dates back to 2013 and was the rate the shop charged a dealer, was $95/hr. So we have lazy mechanics that take twice as long and get paid twice as much (or more) if I follow your line of thinking. :(

    Someone started a thread here https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/uk-vs-us-service-costs.593955/#post-146442788 showing what a UK "Major" cost which is in agreement with everything I have stated. What you are calling a 'major" is a belt swap in the US. Apples and oranges. So yes, I suspect if you can find a shop in the US that will do a belt swap would cost around $3000 US.

    If you look at the two sites you just posted, again it is not clear what is actually done. What they call a "major" doesn't even include timing belts.

    I don't think we are really in disagreement on costs. My point is and has been on what constitutes a major. You pay less for less service. That's the long and short of it.
     
  18. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    I can't believe I read this entire thread, but I was bored. Hope the guy got the car he wanted and it brings him joy. I wouldn't pay $116K for any 355, but I don't really like them. That money could have bought an amazing 360 stick. I don't see it, but that's just me.

    Carry on.
     
  19. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Jun 10, 2007
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    ^If this is accurate, and I highly doubt it is, no way in hell I would let a shop do a "major" service on my car by a tech making 15 bucks an hour.
     
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  20. Douglas52

    Douglas52 Rookie

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    The "Slinky Dog Effect"
    As the price and demand for older Ferraris go up, it drags the later more affordable models behind them.
     
  21. G. Pepper

    G. Pepper Three Time F1 World Champ
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    The metaphor I'm familiar with is a rising tide lifts all boats. :)
     
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  22. Douglas52

    Douglas52 Rookie

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  23. knocker

    knocker F1 World Champ
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    You yanks are laughing all the way to the garage, come to Australia and buy a 355, it’ll make your arses clench quicker than a well oiled bear trap
     
  24. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    You have no one but your government to blame.

    We prefer being free.
     
  25. Rossocorsa1

    Rossocorsa1 F1 Veteran

    May 14, 2017
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    HAHA . Perfect.
     

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