News

Please help! 360 Engine failure after main dealer belt change.

Discussion in '360/430' started by dkilka, Apr 24, 2009.

  1. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,157
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    Maybe this thread should be merged with the one about the guy who's being hassled by Ferrari over an internet site. ;)
     
  2. kraftwerk

    kraftwerk Two Time F1 World Champ

    May 12, 2007
    26,558
    England North West
    Full Name:
    Steve
    Ermm just read through the thread feel a bit ill now..
     
  3. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,157
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    Take a wee dram and lie down for a bit.
     
  4. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Aug 25, 2005
    5,294
    Campbell, CA
    Full Name:
    John Zornes
    If you follow Greg's directions getting to the access isn't hard. The part I didn't manage to sort was how to get the storage bin out of the way in a Spider. Obviously possible just poorly documented and not obvious.
     
  5. GCalo

    GCalo F1 Veteran

    Sep 15, 2004
    6,925
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Greg Calo
    #105 GCalo, May 7, 2009
    Last edited: May 7, 2009
    Now that you mention it, John, I see nothing there.

    I'll go back and check the W/S manual.

    Must be in a separate area I'll have to find.
     
  6. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    274
    Australia
    Ha, ha, suppose I'll simply have to take the pineapple and move on!!!!

    Looks like I've had the "Ferrari experience" and that I am in good company!!!! I love the cars (this is my 3rd) but as an engineer I cannot accept that a marque of Ferrari's distinction has such issues with (what should be) basic components. Vital engine components that cause massive issues when they let go!!! I just hope that Ferrari addresses this but from what I have discovered they will definately not as they have no real motivation or interest in the older cars or their owners. I just hope no one else has this issue. I have already heard of several other unfortunate people who have suffered the same variator failure so I do know it is an issue....Whatever Ferrari say! No doubt Ferrari will attempt to sweep it under the carpet!!!

    BTW I have just had a call from Barbagello.......The head is totaled, every bloody valve is bent!!! Possible piston & conrod issues but I won't know that till they strip it next week!!!

    I love Ferraris but I find a failure of this nature hard to accept, you would think that Ferrari would actually be interested in solving design issues. I am now not really surprised by the F1 teams recent performance!!!! I will get the car fixed (eventually) and then will seriously consider selling both of them (I also have a 1990 348tb). I do not feel Ferrari deserves my business and do not want anything to do with a company that treats it's customers like ****!!!!

    Regardless of the above I want to ensure that the car is repaired correctly and to a high standard so that when I sell it the next owner will not have any issues (well at least not relating to this anyway!) With this in mind I want to also replace the cambelts & tensioner bearings (These are not damaged but I will be getting them removed and filed in the B.I.N. Do you recommend I replace the tensioner brgs with Hill Engineering units?

    Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this post. Your time and assistance has been greatly appreciated.
     
  7. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    274
    Australia
    Hi Russel,
    You make a fair and valid point. I am not holding my breath!!! Things wear out and break on old cars, thats not the issue. This is a design fault. To make matters worse this is a design fault on a component with a previous design fault! (That says a great deal about the quality of the Ferrari engineering & R&D department's!!!) In any case my car has covered less than 10k miles since the variators were replaced and has only covered 27k miles in total!

    I do not believe that Ferrari are/were unaware of this and I do in fact have info from inside Ferrari Italy that shows that they ARE FULLY AWARE that the new type variators are failing. What pisses me off more than anything is the fact that the car was only just serviced at a Ferrari dealer in the north of England who should have been aware of this and advised me to have the variators replaced. Or at the very least checked their condition when undertaking the 30k service and belt change! The fact that Ferrari would rather hide this issue shows a total contempt for the owners of cars out of warranty. They should make the information public and then the owners can decide how to proceed.
     
  8. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    84,910
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    Mate!! I am VERY VERY sorry to hear that!! :(:(

    Replace the tensioners with Hill ones, they are the best. :):)

    Again, very sorry to hear mate. I dont wish this drama upon anyone. :(:(
     
  9. Shack

    Shack Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    May 2, 2005
    1,708
    Earth
    Full Name:
    Jon
    Very sorry to read this post. After you did all the rights things to ensure that this does not happen. Pity you did not have a Power Warranty as then Ferrari would not have a leg to stand on.

    Best of luck.
     
  10. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    274
    Australia
    Thanks guy's,
    I will give a full run down of the damage when I get the report from Barbagallo. Today the mechanic said he had done a preliminary quote and it was A$25,000.00 to A$30,000.00 just in parts!!!!! Not including tensioners as he only priced items that were broken or damaged. I think the parts are more expensive from Ferrari Australia so I will be ordering them from Eurospares or another non-franchise supplier in Europe. I have attempted to source another cylinder head but so far can only source a complete engine. I am a little concerned with 2nd hand engines and heads as they could also have issues so I think I will end up buying all the new parts anyway. I will order the Hill tensioners to be fitted when it eventually all goes back together.

    Looks like I will be paying Barbagallo for their work to date and get the car back home till I can scrape up the cash for the parts. Looks like a valve a week or something of that nature!!! Another "project" I could have done without!!!!! I have actually got my 1990 348tb up for sale so if this sells I can get the 360 repaired with the money from that.

    In the end we have to be thankfull for what we have got. It's a car and it can be repaired. Not a nice situation for anyone to be in but I can think of plenty worse ones!!!!
     
  11. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
    Owner Consultant

    Aug 10, 2002
    16,259
    socal
    Wow that is a huge bill just for parts. I'd source a used engine hopefully with VD stamp or if you are going to keep the car used engine and do the varitor campaign on it just for piece of mind. In the US we got used engines all over the place. It could be cheaper to get one here and ship it plus you will be up and running very quick and maybe with less hidden pain dealing with your old one. You may be able to sell your old engine as a core too and minimize the pain. You could buy a used motor and maybe have one of the trusted pros on Fchat go through it before it is shipped to you. Then you would know you have a drop in motor and are good to go. That way you and couple of buddies could do the install if you have some mechanical ability. With that much motor destruction I'd rebuild your motor if I wanted to build it up hot for racing. Otherwise I would be too lazy to do that much work and just buy a used motor for sake of simplicity and decrease of my personal irritation.
     
  12. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    84,910
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    Holy ****en hell! :eek::eek:

    I just choked on my kebab. :D:D

    Thats mad mate!! I would try and source a 2nd hand engine like FBB just mentioned. Then sell off this ****ed donk to recoupe some of the money. Probably be cheaper going this way, but the car wont have "matching" engine numbers etc.....if thats your thing. But its something to consider to get you back on the road sooner perhaps. :):)

    If I come across a 360 engine, I will let you know mate. :):)


    +1! :D:D
     
  13. mallard

    mallard Rookie

    Oct 17, 2008
    18
    That goes for me too. Makes me angry! (and not a little nervous!)
    John
     
  14. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    274
    Australia
    Cheers guy's,
    It also got my attention when he gave me the info on the cost of parts!!!! I thought "thats more than I paid for my wifes car!!!! and it was a NEW car!!!!! Still we all know what they say about "fools and their money". They are easily parted!!!! I am a tight (and currently skint) Yorkshire man. Perhaps they are used to dealing with people that have more money than sense.

    Thanks for the advice I am on the look out for a LHS head or even an engine. Will see what comes up. I am a little concerned that the numbers won't match if I go down the engine route so I'd prefer a head. But begars cannot be choosers eh!!!

    The Barbagallo tech basically said he had priced for the replacement of the pistons and rods etc (worst case scenario stuff). He also said that if these were replaced we should also fit new rings to the other 4 pots on RHS. I have priced some of the parts from Eurospares and the valves alone are £1,200.00 (A$2,400.00) without the guides or anything else!

    I'll keep you all posted.
     
  15. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,157
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    If it were me the budget would include a line item for Scotch.
    Chin up.
     
  16. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
    Owner Consultant

    Aug 10, 2002
    16,259
    socal
    Ferraris do not have matching numbers
     
  17. swilliams

    swilliams Formula 3

    Jun 14, 2006
    1,369
    Bowling Green, KY
    Full Name:
    Scott
    Used motor from a 360 here for $15k. You could probably get them down to 10-12k and then ship it.

    360 Modena Runs Nice [Video &10,000 miles GA164 $15000 Weber Bros Auto USA-PA(Lebanon) Request_Quote 1-800-222-2528 Request_Insurance_Quote
     
  18. carcommander

    carcommander Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 28, 2006
    1,705
    Southeast
    Full Name:
    Jim
    Matching numbers are not going to matter in a 360. It's a production car.
     
  19. docf

    docf Formula Junior

    Sep 14, 2008
    988
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Gary
    Really sorry to hear about your loss. Looks like you have received a lot of good advise from F-chat., esp last 2 regarding purchase of used engine and fact that # does not have to match. Also fact buying used engine at that price affords you ability to recapture some of your investment parting out your old engine. Good luck.
    Docf
     
  20. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    274
    Australia
    Thanks guy's,
    I'll start looking at engine's.
     
  21. andrewecd

    andrewecd Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 17, 2006
    501
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    What is the latest? Hope you are nearer to getting it back on the road.
     
  22. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    274
    Australia
    #122 dkilka, Jul 31, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I have picked up the car from Barbagallo's today! She is running like a dream! (Which is ironic as this whole episode has been a complete nightmare!!!!)

    I did have to sell my 348tb in order to pay for the repairs which was a shame but such is life.

    The repair consisted of a complete repair on the LHS cylinderhead replacing all valves (not all were bent but I didn't want to do a half arsed job), all guides, all seals, bearings and of course variators. Again I also had both variators replaced as I would have been a complete idiot not to also get the other one replaced! Then their was the obvious items such as the head gasket, fluids and oil & filters etc. I also supplied the dealer with a pair of Hill Engineering tensioner bearings and new belts. The car had only done 100 miles since the belts were changed by a Ferrari dealer in the UK prior to me exporting her out with me to Australia!!!!

    I must also say that I have been very impressed with Richard and the team at Barbagallo Ferrari in Perth. They have been honest and professional throughout. They also charged me the repair hours as detailed in the Ferrari manual even though I know they have run over on these. They also allowed me to purchase the parts myself direct from Europe. This all helped to make a terrible situation slightly easier to deal with.

    Guy's I would seriously advise you all to replace your Variators at your next belt service. They only cost 150 GBP each pluse the labour to change them. I have attached a photo of the failed variator that caused all this damage. Just to remind everyone this was a "new upgraded" type that was fitted under recall in 2004. The fact that this has occured shows that these new variators are still an issue. I have attached a photo of the damaged variator FYI.

    I would not want this to happen to anyone else out there.

    Thanks again to everyone for your advice and best wishes throughout.

    D.

    PS. Also added photo showing damaged head and various bent valves......Not a pretty sight!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  23. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 6, 2002
    70,067
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Bubba
    Variators have been a weak point since the beginning........man, you can see where cutting the threads to the point yours failed is just a marginal design.......

    Sorry to hear of your expense..

    That's what keeps me out of 512BBs, the thought I'd have to sell a 308GTB if I broke it!

    Drive on, man...enjoy!!!
     
  24. mr_bock

    mr_bock Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed Owner

    Oct 27, 2006
    1,365
    FL full time
    I am appalled that Ferrari did not help out when it was determined that the new, upgraded Variator(s) failed. Their fix is a non-fix and the customer suffers for their lack of concern.

    My rant is that there is soooooo much crap being made these days along with very little customer service.
     
  25. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    84,910
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    Great to hear you are back on the road Daniel!! :D:D

    Congrats on the sale of the 348 also. ;);)

    Do you mind sharing with us total cost of this job?? And dont worry mate............I AM sitting down!! :eek::eek:
     

Share This Page