Please help! 360 Engine failure after main dealer belt change. | Page 6 | FerrariChat

Please help! 360 Engine failure after main dealer belt change.

Discussion in '360/430' started by dkilka, Apr 24, 2009.

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  1. fastmover

    fastmover Formula Junior

    Mar 9, 2009
    530
    NA
    I'm willing to bet that driving your 360 is going to feel that much better knowing how hard you had to work to get it back in shape. Well done!
     
  2. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    289
    Australia
    Thanks Guy's,
    Firstly I was (and still am) extremely pissed off with Ferrari. No assistance, not even a discount offered on the parts! What makes me mad is that they do not even and will not even admit there is an issue with these variators. I believe they think this could leave them open to legal action???? However I feel this shows a total dissrespect for their customers....US!!!! I do not wish this upon anyone else and feel we as owners of a 360 should be made aware of the "possibility of a variator issue" by Ferrari and have the option to play safe and consider paying to have the variators replaced at the cambelt service. The manner in which this is being swept under the carpet by Ferrari disgusts me! My car has NEVER been outside the Ferrari dealer network and has always been serviced on or before schedule with only 27k on the clock. Again I have spoken to a couple of main dealer mechanics (who shall remain nameless) and this is an issue.

    I love Ferrari cars like we all do. I was going to sell them both but couldn't bring myself to do it. Sort of like cutting off my nose to spite my face if you understand what I mean. What I would say is that I will never ever consider buying a new one now. I had planned to end up with one within the next 4 to 5 years but after this whole episode I could never do this. I am also highly concerned regarding their engineering abuility. This sort of thing should not be happening!!!!!

    I had a new Porsche in the UK and even when the car was out of warranty by 8mth's the dealer repaired an issue I encounted as a warranty case! (The sat nav PCM system broke and they replaced the whole unit FOC!)

    Pap, The parts were $7500 and the labour was $6000. Total $13,500.00. Not as bad as 1st thought.

    Fastmover,
    Thanks mate, I will certainly enjoy having my 360 back. But I am ashamed to say I am now nervous every time I turn the key!!! I have also taken on the driving style of a Girl! (No offence meant to any Girl's out there.....What am I saying surely this Forum never has any Girls on it does it?????)

    This whole episode has also left me metally scared!!!!! Hell I should see a quack and sue Ferrari's ass off!!!!!!!!
     
  3. andrewecd

    andrewecd Formula Junior

    Dec 17, 2006
    539
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Andrew
    Thanks for the update. Take it for a long a drive (at least a few hundred km) ASAP....sort of like getting back on the horse after it throws you!
    Spoke to dealer last year about this same issue. Answer was your car has no outstanding campaigns, which means variators were replaced and not an issue anymore. We'll see, I suppose.
     
  4. chrmer3

    chrmer3 Formula 3

    May 19, 2006
    1,719
    USSA
    Full Name:
    Chris
    Do you think that there is any chance the updated variator(s) could have been installed improperly? Is there a way that they can be overtightened on install - Causing fatigue on that small threaded area?

    I have no idea, thinking out loud.. just sure looks like that could be an issue if the "replacements" are not common to failing....
     
  5. dkilka

    dkilka Formula Junior

    May 8, 2007
    289
    Australia
    #130 dkilka, Aug 1, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2009
    I also thought this could be an issue at 1st, but to answer your valid question NO it isn't.

    I did lot's of reasearch on this and as part of the variator upgrade Ferrari didn't provide enough time to do the job (or some Ferrari mechanics have argued that they didn't!!!) This is a typical repair job and some are simple while others are a complete Ba£$%&d! The factory tool for holding the cam whilst attempting to remove and install the variators is also the subject of discussion between Ferrari mechs. Some have said its ok while others have said its rubbish. One mech that said its rubbish is Brian (Rifledriver) and if he says its no good then I believe him! Brian is a straight talking mech with massive Ferrari experience.

    The variators can sometimes not line up with the treads in the cam 100% but when this is the case the sensor on the head throws up a ecu error and the engine won't run. If by some strange reason the variator wasn't fitted correctly and the engine did manage to run one could expect immediate damage. This is a case of a part failing over time due to stress, not of being overtighted or installed incorrectly!

    I believe this part is under engineered. The fact that it's a replacement for a part with a known failure issue worries me even more! I am a mechanical engineer and when I saw the variators my 1st impression was that these things are designed to fail!

    Also consider the facts in this case;

    1) Variators replaced with new "Upgraded type" in 2004 car has run till April 2009 without any issues.

    2) Vehicle covered 10k miles in this time. Again no issues.

    I also looked into if the UK dealer could have effected this at the belt service (as I wanted to blame someone!!!! and who better than the dealer who had just done the work, right...... Wrong!!!) The dealer would never venture anywhere near the variators on a belt change. The only issue we found was that the belt tensioner was seized but that was on the other bank of cylinders that did not have anything to do with this. Like I said at the start of the thread I was looking for the truth and not just trying to blame someone if it wasn't their fault. I wouldn't like it if someone attempted to do it to me. I believe in Karma, what goes around comes around!

    I have been told about another 360 over east that had this issue and numerous ones in Europe. Germany is seeing a large number. My source's are saying that this due to the rigours of the German Autobahns....Whatever that means!!!!!

    Anyway, I dare say that many people will not want to hear this and will close their ears and ignore it. Who knows they might not have any issues and I certainly do not wish it upon them. That's their perogative.

    However what I am attempting to do here is provide people with info and the choice to make an informed decision to spend more and cover the issue whilst the cars are in having the belts done (A choice I did not have). I am certainly not doing this for the benefit of increasing Ferrari's spare parts business!!!!!!! If you are like me and have never skimpt on the servicing of your Ferrari I believe the slight cost of variators (£150 each from Eurospares) and the labour (more of a cost) to fit would be money well spent! I will be doing this at the next belt service and every one after.

    I have received fantastic assistance and advice from this forum and felt that I simply must follow this post through and detail my findings in order to assist everyone on here. Either take my advice or don't. It's your choice.

    If this thread saves just one person from experiencing what I have then I will be happy.

    D.
     
  6. PAP 348

    PAP 348 Nine Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Dec 10, 2005
    99,176
    Mount Isa, Australia
    Full Name:
    Pap
    Thanks for the update!! :):)

    $13,500 isnt too bad. I was thinking around the $20K+! :eek::eek:

    Good to hear its sorted now man. If I EVER get a 360, I will be sure to replace those variators every belt service. :):)

    Cheers mate. :):)
     
  7. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,880
    Sonoma, CA
    DKILKA: Great thread. And you expressed many thoughts I am having as well to 'driving like a girl now'.....Not the way one wants to experience the 'fun' of Ferraris, always wondering what will explode next.

    As I've seen in [similar] thread, the 'updates' seem to be a problem too. Not sure due to replacement process vs parts quality, but whatever, both leave one wondering.

    Hill Engr. could make a better, more solid living supplying parts to Ferrari on the factory floor, and Ferrari should welcome such [not a hijack, just a comment].
     
  8. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Ferrari put off doing something about the first generation variators until even Ray Charles could see the problem. That is SOP for them. Deny, deny, deny until everyone knows it is a lie then thay act as though they are taking the high road and fix the problem. The trouble is all that happens during the warranty period on cars they will need to fix anyway. It is quite common for them to do a stalling action until the fleet of cars is out of warranty and they can cast their eyes in every other direction and pretend it isn't happening.

    That brings us to today. Ferrari is not likely to take action until they prove to themselves it will be cheaper to take action than to ignore the problem. That MIGHT require lawyers.

    All I can say is to tell this story to everyone you know contemplating buying a 458.
     
  9. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,880
    Sonoma, CA
    458 using similar variators? Or just the typical new unknowns about Ferrari products.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    Just reminding buyers of the companies really terrible product support. That and the fact the beginning with the California and 458 Ferrari has gone to direct online diagnostics and electronic service equipment essentially depriving the consumers of any choice for servicing their new cars. My shop will not be servicing any model any newer than 599. I suspect that will be the norm for any real servicing or repair.

    It will be a very bad period for the consumers. The company has essentially monopolized the service of their new products.
     
    tamburini44 likes this.
  11. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,986
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    Brian- That really screws over customers like me who live 400 miles or more from a dealership. Not a good deal.

    Diagnostic equipment prohibitively expensive or just completely unavailable?

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  12. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,690
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    It seems we've entered a new era of Ferraris. Enzo, Fiat, Di Montemezemolo and now Dealer.
    IMO Cali and later cars will be less desirable when it comes to resale.
     
  13. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,880
    Sonoma, CA
    #138 SonomaRik, Oct 29, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2009
    It is now a 'new' time for Ferrari and [as Brian stated] a line in the sand to pick your model and just get over it: The older models are more appealing and can be done by most that read here, so why would one want an expensive [poorly supported] Toyota?

    The design, the mass production like never seen before, or the limited production coupled with terrible support all relying on built-in diagnostics, will make the plug-n-play technician even worse to keep these cars at a price level one would be pleased.

    What's next, interactive iPhones for the Mandarin texting soon to come from our new overlords...

    shoot, now that I'm started, we may only have one F1 in NA, maybe none of the older tracks in EU, and all moving to FE MEast or such....

    it's about gone.

    ok, what was this thread about? [where is my wine, er, whine]
     
  14. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
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    Brian Crall
    #139 Rifledriver, Oct 29, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2009
    On line only. Plug the car into the modem.

    Fix the brakes.....modem

    Replace the clutch.......modem

    CEL...........modem

    Air bag light because you pulled the speedo and like a bone head turned on the key...........modem.

    HVAC not working right .............modem.


    Ferrari dealer knows they are the only game in town?........$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


    Think its bad now?

    Just wait.
     
  15. Dave 456

    Dave 456 Formula 3

    Nov 15, 2007
    1,317
    Sydney, Australia
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    Dave Simons
    dkilka,

    Any chance of a good photo of the fracture surface? I'll bet on a fatigue failure, the initial crack site at the root of the thread or the thread runout. I'll also bet on machined or ground threads, not rolled and very little radius at the forward end of the threaded section. Not nice design for a part subject to alternating bending loads and high number of cycles.
     
  16. Financialman

    Financialman Formula 3

    Sep 8, 2005
    1,841
    San Jose CA
    Full Name:
    Dan Carpenter
    This information is very upsetting! I think I will pass on the 458 and just drive my 430 until a variator breaks and destroys the engine, then just throw it away.

    You would think Ferrari might lose some customers at some point, would'nt you?
     
  17. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,986
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    Brian- Well, I guess that is one way to get around the producer of the SD3 going under. Or perhaps this is why he went under? Customer disappeared.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  18. djantlive

    djantlive Formula 3

    Jun 30, 2005
    1,015
    I don't find independent mechanics much cheaper than dealer pricing. They can be more knowledgeable but not necessarily cheaper.

    I would not write off Ferrari based on online diagnostic.

    BTW, why would a brake change require online diagnostic?
     
  19. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 19, 2008
    37,986
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    #144 tazandjan, Oct 29, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2009
    DJ- According to your profile, you do not even own a Ferrari, so how would you know? Extrapolating other cars' service costs to Ferraris is not an accurate science.

    The bad news is a large number of Ferrari owners do not live near a dealer and an independent is their only choice. I am one of them. Trucking your Ferrari or making a 1000 mile round trip for service is not my idea of how I want to use my Ferrari.

    CCM brake wear is partially an algorithm on how the brakes are used. ECU needs to be read before and reset after some types of brake service.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  20. SonomaRik

    SonomaRik F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 15, 2006
    6,880
    Sonoma, CA
    As an aside to that from my experience:

    - get more than a bargain on [good] indep. mechs vs Ferrari mechs who cannot think out of the box. Case in point [have several] Need a radiator fix = new one needed or such for the 456. Ferrari's resolution: new radiator part, to include the attached oil-rad, AND since it is being replaced, it will need the newer [good?/better?] part number: Cost for part North of $8,000+. Cost to install keep adding $$$$, parts replaced via OEM crap, like original hoses: Priceless as they'll fail again.

    Rifledriver's solution which Ferrari cannot do: DO IT right, for less and, much better. He actually increased the production cooling area by IIRC interlapping some of the inner tubes..not much but a bit more. Kept the old oil-rad, good to go...and oh, ya' those hoses: MUCH Better than OEM.

    might have been close to F-OEM-Dealership price, but I got a much better deal and now sleep better.

    Honestly, I have other perfect examples, like FofSF MUST replace my oil with AGIP !!!!! Because it's in the specs manual...perhaps they left that new page out...perhaps they can't think out of the box...whatever, they don't even endorse the oil, but that's what I got as late as two years ago...HAD TO DO it was the excuse. and they were a factory owned dealership at the time.

    This is not at you but the point being, I don't see Ferrari changing their manners anytime soon in this. Mechs at the dealerships open the book charge the time shown and plug and play the item. they you are off to 'yet another thing' ---even perhaps the same 'thing' to break down.

    not truly better than a Kia dealership, actually, Kia has upped their abilities as per my son's latest repair.
     
  21. since-15

    since-15 Formula 3

    Nov 26, 2008
    1,142
    #146 since-15, Oct 30, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2009
    I think you're correct to a point. They will have many Ferrari owners by the crouch, yet I think Ferrari is actually going to reach into the Indy's pockets. They are going to charge you guys for exclusive access and software (and probably hardware) to their Ferrari "service database." Ferrari knows the "finer" Indy shops will pay to play. What they cannot monopolize they will exploit.
     
  22. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    33,736
    Austin TX
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    You do not know Ferrari. I have spent over 30 years of my professional life dealing with them, both from inside and out. I do have a little insight. It will not be offered unless legal action is taken. It will be in the EU because over there they actually enforce laws on the books.
    In the US Ferrari has never sold diagnostic equipment and never will. It is against the law but here our government does not enforce laws they cannot make money on. Ferrari in the US wants a monopoly. That is why it costs us so much to get it. An SD2 cost the US dealers $3000 when they came out, it cost me $25,000 because Ferrari put up every available road block to me having one.
     
  23. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    26,294
    socal
    Originally Posted by Rifledriver

    That and the fact the beginning with the California and 458 Ferrari has gone to direct online diagnostics and electronic service equipment essentially depriving the consumers of any choice for servicing their new cars. My shop will not be servicing any model any newer than 599. I suspect that will be the norm for any real servicing or repair.


    Wow! I am not surprised.
     
  24. since-15

    since-15 Formula 3

    Nov 26, 2008
    1,142
    Of course I do not know Ferrari and I don't claim to. Your insight and expertise is valuable to Ferrari owners, Ferrari enthusiasts and to the Ferrari fan (such as myself). It appears that what I stated was supported by your latter comment, "An SD2 cost the US dealers $3000... it cost me $25,000." What's to stop Ferrari from doing the same thing again? They will probably ***** and moan again and then after a time sell what you need at another astronomically ridiculous price? It begs to ask, would you buy the materials needed if Ferrari is selling as you did last time?
     
  25. windsock

    windsock Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Nov 29, 2006
    1,066
    sd2: dealer cost when it was available $13,000 US, not $3,000
    sd3: dealer cost when it was available $18,000 us plus $1,000 a quarter for support.
    DEIS system, new for California and 458, $30,000 cost too dealer plus $1,000 quarter for support.
    By the way the Maserati and Ferrari do not share testing equipment any longer, the Maserati tester is an additional $18,000 dealer cost plus and additional $1,000 per quarter subscription.

    The dealers do not have it much better and it is why they cost what they do.
    Many of the dealers do look out of the box for repairs. Consideration must be given to any warranty on parts. If I use a Ferrari timing belt and tensioners I have a one year warranty covered by Ferrari not myself. If I use other suppliers it falls on me. That can be a big problem if something unexpected occurs.

    Not looking to argue with Rifledriver, I have great respect for him. Just a different point of view. We also have radiators made rather Ferrari units.
     

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