Please help! 360 Engine failure after main dealer belt change.

The price for an SD2 when they came out in 99 was $3000. I opened the box and I had the original invoice. Several years later when we bought a second it was $8000. The open market price was from the beginning and still is about $25000. I know, I attempted to get one from the very beginning and my own dealer screwed me out of one at the $8000 price. I will take your word on it that it went to $13000 but that is still half of the open market price.


The dealers do have it worse in some respects but that is not one of them. I have no disagreement with the dealers as a group, both they and the independants are being screwed by Ferrari and by extension the owners as well. My point though is that Ferrari has positioned themselves to increase the screwing and that is exactly why they have taken the steps that they have.

 

You seem to think Ferrari was selling them to us. They never did. In the EU they were required to sell them to genuine repair shops by law. The legal purchasers of them over there violated their purchase agreements and sold them for export. That will not be possible with an online service.

 

I understand now. It appears there isn't a way around the Ferrari "BS" this time, for now anyway. Technology is a beautiful thing and there are plenty of ingenious people out there. Someone will figure this one out and then they can "violate purchase agreements" again to help the Indys out, at least I hope so.

 

i was looking for a complete engine for a 360 last year (Nov).......found one in Sydney for 10k Aus with low kms........they are available just have look hard

 

Thanks for the feedback....if it's any consolation it sounds like you got off fairly lightly with the bill. There's a thread somewhere in the Aussie section - I broke the cambelt in a (bought new) V6 Alfa, 1k and a couple of months out of warranty. Even though I'd booked it in for a belt change before the warranty ran out, Ateco didn't want to know, didn't even want to talk about it. Cancelled the order for a new Mito..

 

If your country would allow contingent fees, you would be able to do something. You might want to ask counsel in your country if there is such a thing as a class action case. If so, it might be a viable deal for someone to pursue that claim.

Art

 

Don't be too sure about Porsche being so much better engineered. Ask any 996 or 968 owner that has experience IMS or D-chunk failures and repeated RMS leaks. The new engines don't have the IMS (intermediate shaft) because it was the Porsche dirty little secret that they failed. Attempts to upgrad the support bearings for the IMS over the years did not solve the problem.

I know plenty of people that had 2 IMS failures. If they happened outside of warranty, you were SOL. Very few got PCNA support on the fix. Those that got support got a bit of a discount on the fix.

The fix when your IMS goes is a new engine! I am not as familiar with D-chunk, but I think it is the same.

 

I think D-chunk is different. It is when the cylinder wall cracks and eventually breaks out in the form of a 'D' shaped piece. If I remember correctly it is cylinder #2 & #5 that fail? The Goat Farm in England was working on a fix to salvage failed 996 motors that had this cylinder wall failure.
CH

 

Up North in Canada there is action pending regarding this issue>


Ron Loveys
TADA PRESIDENT

Canadian auto manufacturers and independent service and repair shops have reached an agreement in principle on a matter that affects new-car dealerships and consumers across Canada.

The manufacturers have agreed to provide independent auto repair businesses with access to vehicle diagnostic and repair technology, training and documentation.

If this agreement is accepted by all interested parties, it should forestall the right-to-repair bill before the House of Commons known as C-273, a private member's bill introduced by NDP MP Brian Masse.

This voluntary agreement resembles a similar type of agreement in the United States. The Toronto, Ontario and Canadian auto dealers' associations have been advocating against this bill for several months, in order to avoid European-style legislation in Canada. We have been closely monitoring developments and are in favour of a voluntary approach over any legislation that would further encroach on a dealer's business.

We're confident that this voluntary approach is in the best interests of dealers.

The proponents of Bill C-273 claim that under the current system, independent repair and service shops are at a disadvantage, because they don't have complete access to all of the auto manufacturers' proprietary diagnostic and repair information.

These independent service and repair shops, which have been lobbying hard to gain access to this information, are pleased with this latest development. They claim that it will lead to greater competition and provide consumers with more choice about where to have their vehicles repaired.

The Automotive Industries Association of Canada (AIA), representing Canadian Tire and other major aftermarket participants, has vigorously condemned the voluntary agreement that was announced this week. AIA will continue to lobby for right-to-repair legislation that goes beyond this week's voluntary agreement.

An AIA representative was quoted in media outlets a few days ago, saying that a voluntary agreement does not have the necessary teeth to protect the aftermarket.

It should be noted that 75 per cent of all non-warranty repairs are performed by independent service and repair shops.

According to DesRosiers Automotive Consultants, new-car dealers in Canada account for 32.4 per cent of the total parts and service business. Independent shops make up the remainder.

What has been the public's response to out-of-warranty repairs? There are no public lobbying efforts or outcry over any suspected unfairness with the status quo.

Plus, most of the small independent repair shops are customers of franchise dealers for parts and service, and we know that many of them contact dealers for help on repairs and receive guidance over the phone.

We believe this agreement will continue to strengthen the relationship between franchise dealer and their parts customers, the small repair shop.

The reason aftermarket shops have the lion's share of the aftermarket business is because much of the information needed to diagnose and repair today's vehicles is already available from the auto manufacturers.

The manufacturers should have the right to share certain proprietary information with their respective dealer networks. That's the way it has been for decades, and new-car dealer associations see no reason to legislate for a problem that doesn't exist.

New-car dealerships invest millions to operate their franchises. Part of the cost of doing business is the access to proprietary diagnostic and repair information from the manufacturer.

We hope that federal government officials will continue to work with all interested parties in the pursuit of a voluntary agreement.

As I noted in a previous column, the federal government doesn't require other industries to share proprietary information with their competitors. Why should the auto industry be any different?

 

didnt henry ford say once I will give my cars away for free so long as you buy the parts from me for servicing?

I had real problems with a QP..........glad to be rid of it, even under warranty the dealer couldnt get it right.

 

Has anyone attempted to make an aftermarket SD2?

 

Tool up costs too high to be able to offset by expected sales.

 

cheers, i just thought some propellor head guru could come up with a way of designing a diagnostic system without the olivetti/ ferrari logo on the unit

 

While talking customer service; Jaguar had the best of any marques I've owned.

 

I read this whole thread, took a long time haha. So far my thought is to fix the variator is to take them and cryo them to be stronger, maybe a good idea for other parts. Or buy a newer lamborghini hahaha. I have neither, but reading this makes me want a gallardo over a 360.. even though i find my self coming back to the 360. Any who curious what others have to say on the cryo bit. This can be done with clutches flywheels brake rotors bearings and such. If you don't know to much about it look it up. Really amazing!

 

Okay I've read this whole sad affair. I commiserate with the OP at the loss of his second F car to pay for the repairs. Could someone enlighten me on how this variator works? Looking at the photos it appears to be just a machine part that attaches the drive pulley to the cam shaft (albeit with a very small threaded section). My understanding of variable cam timing was achieved by the ECU changing the angle of the cam in relationship to the pulley but I don't see any electronic interface here.
Thanks
Alan

 

The timing variator scares the $%^t out of 360 owners... but like sasquatch stealing your car for a drive... most owners have never even seen one. Let alone tell you how it works.

What it does is advance the timing of the exhaust cam.

IMagine a hollow cylinder within a cylinder. The outer cylinder has a hole in it. Oil can freely enter the holes in the outer cylinder. The inner cylinder is solid and screws onto the camshaft. The outer cylinder has the timing belt sprocket bolted to it.

Also imagine that there is a lever connecting the two cylinders together on the inside of the larger, outer cylinder that can be pushed by pressure in between the two cylinders.

Normally the cylinders are in alignment. When the pressure in between the two increases, it pushes the lever. The lever then results in the outer cylinder rotating counterclockwise
(clockwise) just a tad, relative to the inner cylinder. When this happens, marks on the outer cylinder that used to match up, are now out of alignment. Timing that, according to the outer cylinder, matched prior... with oil pressure applied is now "advanced" prior to where it was before the oil pressure was applied.

Therefore, pressurized oil entering the holes of the outer cylinder advanced (or retarded.. not sure) the rotation of the exhaust camshaft. When the oil pressure is released, the lever in between the cylinders stops pushing, and the timing goes back to "normal".

The 360 has a variator control solenoid valve (195086) that controls the flow of pressurized oil. Its located at the front of the engine. One for each bank. When this opens per the computer, the exhaust valve timing is changed. ( Similar to the variocam solenoid in porsches but easier to change... in porsches the tightness of the timing chain is used to adjust the valve timing as I understand. ) Actuation being RPM dependent @ approx 3500-3800 RPM or so IIRC..

As I understand the variator fails in two ways, the first most common is the shaft cracks where it meets the camshaft.. like a cam gear shearing off. The second (less common) is the mechanism inside the variator breaks. The updated variator has a thicker shaft to prevent fracturing. Failure is rare, and if the variator has been done.. just drive it. Of not, the Workshop manual places a lifetime of 60k miles/100kM on the variator! Don't fret.. failure is rarer than 986 and 996 IMS bearing failures as I understand.

 

I'm selling

 

Thanks for zat.

LOL...

 

Hard to trust a piece of machinery with "vary" in its name.

 

Thanks for that excellent explanation Curt
Alan