Poor man's P4 replica project

Arlie

According to Neil Foreman roughly 40% of the kits go to the US, about 40% to the UK and the rest elsewhere. The original kit was designed and sold by Lee Noble (of Noble M12 GTO fame) he sold the business to somebody by the name of Butler who only made a few kits then Neil bought the rights a few years ago so it's possible the kit Nickm had was a Noble or a Butler, alternatively it may have been a Sbarro which I don't know much about but believe it is 308 based, some details at http://perso.club-internet.fr/clcalvet/sbarro/modelemois/P4-mai2001/P4gb.html

 

In reply to 'Horseflys' thoughts on earlier P4 replicas (like Nick M's) - Yes there are quite a few Noble P4's Stateside in fact. I'm always on the look out for them to add them to 'the register'. They were imported into the U.S. by Richard Brengman (SIAC); Jim Carpenter (Cable Productions) and another party in New York (unofficially) in the early 90's.
Some of them still surface occasionally on Ebay, like Nick's, having been horribly chopped around by a succession of uncaring owners. (Nick owns a bodyshop, and the fiberglass work is no problem - but I don't think he realises some of the mechanical hurdles he has yet to overcome). There is a similar car 'doing the rounds' in UK now (and has been for 3 years or so). Another Stateside owner recently contacted Neil Foreman looking for windscreen (sorry windshield) for his Noble P4 - turns out he has had his Noble P4 kit since '91, but not started building it yet ! So they are out there ! Here's a couple of photos of a very tastily modified U.S. owned Noble P4: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~thiett/vintage/p4.jpg Beautifully done, but shame it was built as LHD and those S-W gauges.
Regards, Paul.
www.p4replica.com

 

No, Mark - the Sbarro P4 is a one-off based on a 308GTB (or GTS). It is currently sat in a dealers showroom in Brig, Switzerland. It was for sale by www.race-car.com for $75K, but now I see that a Canadian website has it listed for $159K ! http://www.exoticaronline.com/inventory/propview.php?view=119

Nick M's car is definately a Noble. It started life as a RHD Berlinetta, and a couple of people have had a go at converting it to a LHD Spyder. The last owner, before Nick seems to have forgotten that he also needs to move the pedal box !

Speaking of 'Poor man's P4 replica' here's a few pics of mine for the rest of you. Sorry no Ferrari V-8, like Mark's. As many early Noble P4's, mine uses Renault PRV V-6 and transmission (same as Delorean, Dodge Premier etc.) but in mid-engine configuration: http://public.fotki.com/P4Replica/my_p4_replica/

Regards, Paul.

 

Sorry to have picked up on this thread a couple of days late (I really must stay off eBay and follow FerrariChat more closely), but going back to 'HorseFly's' original quote of "But what's a poor Englishman to do when James has the only unbuilt P4 in his garage ?" ..... Well in fact it's not quite the only aluminium bodied P4 'reproduction' currently under construction at the moment. There are two others in the U.K.
This P4 Spyder is apparently now also nearing completion - Go to: http://www.shapecraft.com/ and click on Ferrari, and then Ferrari P4.
And also another Englishman (who posted under the pseudonym of 'Top Speed' in the earlier 'P4 in Red' thread http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/271551/286260.html?1059309585) just happens to be building a P4 Berlinetta with a chassis and body panels also supplied by David Piper. He is more modestly claiming his car to be chassis #0900a !
Back to your side of the pond, and Bob Norwood is still building his ally-bodied P4 Spyders. Now on #11 and #12 with 456GT and Maranello V-12's, respectively. Apparently the price tag is $350K plus .....
So for 'poorer' folk like Mark and myself, Noble and Foreman P4 replicas will do very nicely for the time being - until we win the Lottery that is !
Regards, Paul.
PS - if anybody wants any photos or more details on Noble P4 replicas, please email me: [email protected]

 

Hmmm ... somewhat of a in your face post IMO. In the end this comes down to what makes a car original. Jim's car (unlike the other examples you mentioned) has a chassis that was made back in the 60's and from all evidence so far is a genuine Ferrari chassis.

IMO that chassis is what makes the car original ... nothing else matters as everything else gets replaced as the car races.

Anyway I can see some will always argue on this point .

Moving on to the P4 replicas (and P4Replica yours looks very well made, and like the attention to detail with the similar to original style seats) they do not look big enough in the rear of the car to me. If you look Jim's car (and the yellow P3) the rear bodywork is really tall and dominates the car. It appears to me (and I would have to see them side by side to be sure) that Noble has lowered the lines to IMO improve the looks.

I also think it is a pity that Nobles chassis differs from the original so much, but I can understand why ...

Pete

 

Hi Terry,
I've seen one of those 917's you are talking about in person (if it's the one made in Australia). It was in a local Porsche show about a year ago, brought over to show at the car show before it was delivered to it's new owner in NY. That car was AWESOME! Thier work is top notch. They had a group of 50 folks hovering around that car at all times! I just happened to be checking out thier website a few days ago trying to come up with a good excuse to buy one of them (one of these days). Here's a link to thier site if you dont have it:
http://www.kraftwerkz.net/

 

Hey Horsefly, long time no talk! Still working on that 'lil P4 replica I bought.
I know last time I talked to you I said it would be getting painted soon. Well, we got busy with a few side projects and put the P4 on hold for just a bit longer. I will post some photos of it when we get moving on it again. Hopefully in just a week or 2. It probably only needs 2-3 weeks of constant 8hr days on it to get it ready for paint. Soon.....i hope.
*Had to change my f-chat user name 'cause my old passwork screwed up, so I gave up trying to fix my "nickm" user name, & let my wife register me again, hense her wonderfully made up "nickandcindy" user name that I havent gotten used to yet.

 

Hi Paul,
Also, long time no email! Ya gotta post that photo that you sent to me at Christmas time of the P4 w/ the Christmas tree. I think everyone would enjoy it. You are correct about the mechanicals of my car. It will be the nerve racking part of the "job" for my Noble P4 project, but luckily I am pretty well "hooked up" in the car world with friends that will probably help me out with that stuff. I keep hearing contradictory things though, I'd love to put a carberated 308 in it, and have been told it can be done by some folks, then told the opposite from others. Soon I'll start investigating a bit more.
Take care Paul...talk to you soon & I'll send ya some photos.

 

Hi, PSK .....
No - it is the Noble P4's that are 2" taller than the rear cars (and as Mark correctly said, also some 4" longer in the wheelbase). The reason for this was that UK kit car regulations dictated that the driver's feet should be behind the front axle line - so immediately you are sitting 'taller' in the car - hence the slightly domed roof (which can look ungainly from some angles) to cater for taller drivers. I found this other US Noble a while back, where the roof section had been modified even more ! http://www.motorcities.com/contents/00FK9552920750.html
There are a couple of more authentic looking Noble P4 replicas (one in UK and another in Germany) whose owners have lowered the rooflines back to something like the correct profile, but both these guys are fairly short, and anyone else has trouble getting in their cars. Some nice pics of the German owned Noble at: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/174013/229679.html
The Butler and Foreman cars (which are very similar) solved the problem by raising the body (40mm) above the chassis rails.
The reason for the chassis being nothing like an original P4's is simple. It was designed for ease of build, and strength. The Noble P4 chassis is a modified 'Ultima' chassis. Lee Noble started the Ultima project - and production of the P4 kits ran alongside them for a couple of years.
Regards, Paul.

 

Ooops ! That should of course read - 2" taller than the reaL cars !

 

Hiya Nick.
Glad to hear that you are still persevering with your project. The UK equivalent of your car (actually a much worse example with 'modified' suspension) is doing the rounds again, now the current owner has also given up on it. It was in last month's Kit Car magazine for 6.5K (pounds). Shame.
I'd love to post that pic of the P4 Can-Am with the Christmas tree. Two problems. It's 569K and I don't have any suitable photo-editing sofware to reduce its size for uploading. Secondly, I think that it could cause criticism of the car. I know, and you know, that it is drop-dead gorgeous, but Foreman P4 Can-Ams are a long way from looking like the real 350 Can-Am.
What I'd really like to post is that photo of you 'surfing' on the rear deck of your P4. Still makes me smile when I look at it ! Same problem -707K ! Great to hear again from you Buddy .....
Regards, Paul.
PS - Don't forget that you still owe me that address ;o)

 

To PSk ....
Yes Pete, that post was meant to be contentious (call it in your face if you like). There is no doubt that what Jim Glickenhaus is building is a wonderful recreation of a P4 using some original parts. No doubt it will take top honours at Monterey this year. But IMHO (and one or two others like Wayne Austerbrooks?) - #0846 it is NOT! Although, through his various disjointed posts, JG is doing a pretty good job of convincing the 'non-cognoscenti' that it is. Good luck to him is all I say, but I am sticking to my guns.
Here's a few thoughts for you:
1) #0846 began life as a P3 Spyder. It was converted to a P3/4 Spyder at the end of the 66 season (winning Daytona in '67) and remained in this Spyder configuration till its demise at Le Mans in '67. If Jim is seriously claiming his car is #0846, why then build it as a P4 Berlinetta ? Study the photos in previous posts. There are a lot of subtle differences that people have failed to pick up on (including Jim cleverly posting photos of #0856 ;o) !
2) The parts (including the chassis) all came from David Piper. If David really owned #0846 previously - then why did he go to all the trouble of building his own P4 Spyder from parts, only then have to go back to Enzo, to be allocated the unused chassis number #0900 ? Think on it !
3) #0846 was burned out at Le Mans in '67. P4 Doors (Spyder or Berlinetta) are moulded from fibreglass. Have you ever seen fibreglass burn ? It burns a darned sight quicker than aluminium or steel, with very little but ash left. So this post of Jim's really made me chuckle. Who does he think he is kidding ? http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/271551/278444.html?1065257971
Not me for one ! I don't want to get into a war of words about this, Pete (or litigation) - I'm just stating MY opinion. If you want to start up a new thread on this particular topic, let me know. I have plenty more ammunition. In the meantime, I'd like to keep this topic going - on the original subject of 'Poor Man's P4 replicas' .....
Regards, Paul (P4Replica).

 

Napolis, I hope that a few sour grapes will not stop you from sharing with us your project. Personally, I don't give a hoot if you call it a P44 or a B52. Who really cares? It is a beautiful car and thanks for sharing, even if by doing so it exposes you to a few grumps. If you are doing this with the idea of making a few bucks, that would be one thing. But to do this, just to do it, is great. More power to you!

Dr "Don't Let The Bastards Get You Down" Tax

 

I always wondered what "Non Carborumdrum illitigitimi" meant...
Best

 

P4, while I have no way of knowing, I suspect that your numbers might be right. However, if you don't plan on selling, what difference does it make?

I'm just happy to see that there are people like Napolis who are willing to put their money into a project like this because if they don't, it doesn't happen, and you and I never get to enjoy the car. Again, I have no way of knowing for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that Napolis and others like him have better investment opportunties than pouring a lot of bucks into an old car.

I don't mean to jump on your case because I realize that to a small group of people these things are important, but the rest of could care less. All that matter is that Napolis is creating some beauty where before there was none.

Probably the same could be said for your replica, eh?

Take Care, DrTax

 

Paul
No matter how many times you say it "cleverly" implies deceit. Let's have no misunderstanding. Do you think the posting of that pic is somehow deceitful?
There's a difference from being wrong and deceitful. BTW do you know for a fact that is 0856? How? Besides what does it matter?
Everyone knows 0846 never raced as a coupe. By making it a coupe I'm hardly making points with concours judges.
Today 0856 is a spyder. Once it was a coupe. Again so what?

 

Wayne, I should probably sit this one out. Lord knows that Jim doesn't need my help. But the attitude of many of those in the concours game really sticks in my craw. Bottom line? Who the hell knows how Luigi did it at the factory? And, more importantly, who cares?

In a past life, I used to be into restoring Triumph motorcycles, and it used to amuse me to watch people obsessing over some minute detail (does this red have enough violet?), knowing that it was all BS. Timmy was a good lad, but he was known to have a pint or two too many down at the local pub. Those Bobbies might not of had guns, but they sure knew how to swing a billy club. Thus, sometimes the young lad would show up for work just a wee bit under the weather, don't you know? And well, on those days, the paint mix might end up just a tad different from other days.

Point being that what counts is the finished product. Granted some folks over restore, but a car that was a pig originally, is still a pig.

In this case, Jim is restoring a freaking race car! Geeze Louise. Have you ever been in the pits and seen what these guys are doing? This was particulary true back in the 60s and 70s. What worked was the name of the game, not elegance.

Wayne, this diatribe is not aimed at you. I said at the top of the hour that I probably should let this one slide. But come on. Does anyone doubt that Jim's car is a Ferrari? Does anyone doubt that Jim's car came from geniune Ferrari race cars? So what if it is number 007 or number 9 or whatever. Hell, Jim has already admitted that they threw the damn thing in the trash bin. I'm just grateful that he is doing this, and I'm concerned that if he catches a lot of flack that this will discourage Jim's son from doing something similar in the future. After all, it is just a car.

Okay, I'm done. Over and out, Dale

 

I'm with the tax doc on this. It is to me highly interesting to follow this debate, but I do realize this is way over my head.

And I second Tax's statement about the racecars. These things have been built and rebuilt, so who knows what is really original. Same goes for the early Ferrari cars as well. Yes, you can be a purist all you want, but when Enzo saw an opportunity, they just hacked that car apart and made it into a new one.

So I'll shut up and be a quiet bystander. Mesmerized nevertheless.

 

P4Replica,

I think you are giving Jim an unnecessary hard time here. I am a firm believer that Jim will eventually confirm somehow what it is, and be 100% upfront about it.

Remember his GT40 was bought as the Le Mans race winner and then Jim proved that it was not! ... this surely cost him buckets ... but somebody in Jim's position is not interested in the cost/money because it is not an issue.

Thus even though I have personally never met Jim, reading his posts seem to me about trying to work out what he has got and thus getting all the facts straight, whatever the answer maybe.

One thing for sure is ALL the parts are pretty damn genuine ... and as always with REAL race cars there never is simply just cars, but a huge collection of parts that ocassionally were assembled for a race ... and then probably exchanged or moved around between cars, or simply binned!

Pete
ps: I would also like clarifications of the 'I was there' comment. That could mean anything from you watch a single race where one competed or were part of the factory race team. Also building a replica (copy IMO, because it is very different) does not IMO make you an expert on the real thing ... yes you have obviously done a lot of research, but it still not the same thing.

 

I also said, that Enzo used a chainsaw whenever he saw it fit: There is IMHO (and I'm not as knowledgeable as Wayne or Jim by any means) no double standard: The early Ferraris were/are treated with just about as much leniency as the racecars. After all the first ones were built to be racecars. As you know Enzo changed the 166 bodies as he saw fit.

If you toss a body, but keep the engine or vice versa who is to say which car is more original. Which is why we have more GTOs and others than there ever were (just look up the controversy about the 166 and the first or 2nd or 3rd Ferrari ever built, who knows).

Double standard only came into play much later. There I agree with you. Once the early days were gone, the street cars became more scrutinized. Personally I think that is only natural. A racecar is an experimental car after all. Which is also why I think it is so funny, that every F1 car in private hands today is a Schumacher car. You never find an Eddie or Rubens car. If the Maestro touched it just once, it will be a Schumi car...

 

Horsey, I couldn't agree with you more. The problem, I think, is that the old car game has turned into a very profitable business for some folks. Those looking to make money are the ones that focus the most on "originality" because, by doing so, they make their original cars just that much more valuable.

Originally, this whole focus on originality (sorry, I couldn't help myself) started when buyers wanted to avoid buying that hemi you blew up when you were 18. It is hard enough restoring a car (or motorcycle) without having to fix the screw ups of some shade tree mechanic.

But, money changes everything. To give just one example, once I was offered a set of factory "stamping tools" and collection of knock off blank cases for Triumph Bonnevilles with the idea that I could make a lot of money buying junkers with non-matching engines and restamping them as original. Even worse, the factory records are so screwed up and nobody would be able to prove any different.

Thus, to an extent, the eagle eyes like P4Replica that help keep the shysters at bay is a good thing. But too much of a good thing can also give you a belly ache.

Personally, I think that a "non-matching" hemi sounds like one hell of a deal, so long as everything is disclosed.

Take Care, Dr "Who Remembers When Hemis Came In Cars, Not Trucks" Tax

 

Arlie
After many miles I've come to the point where in a weird way all I really care about is when you look something can you feel it? Tomorrow I'll post some more pic that I for one can feel. As the good DR. Tax said: "If you can smell the beer and the blood it's real."

 

Arlie
The photo we're arguing about isn't the one your speaking of. That one is def. 0846 after the crash at LeMans. As you surmised it's taken off a frame of the BBC TV coverage of the 67 LeMans Race. The Fiberglass door is clearly visable. It's removed and leaning against the tail. At that point 0846 is NOT "Completely destroyed".