Poor man's P4 replica project

It is not double standards, it is simply nearly impossible to find a race car that is actually how it was originally made, thus what that car achieved becomes more important. The fact is that a race car was not made to a design that works so much as it is a work in progress.

Many years ago a Ferrari 206S (Dino something race car) was found that was 100% original except for the owner adding a gauge to the dash. Why was this car so original? ... simply because it had little use and had hardly ever been raced. This car caused a fair bit of excitement at the time.

In the end though I would rather have the chassis that won Le Mans, or something like that than a car that had sat in a garage all its life. The cars that raced had great drivers guide them ... that 206S did not ... it just sat there.

So in the end it is the history of ALL cars that affects how collectable it is. A road car being original shows it has good history (because after all most of the time who drove it makes little difference, or is of little interest) while a race car with winning history makes it have good history.

As for an engine being replaced by the manufacturers under warrantee ... well that is simply pathetic that that car is devalued because of that ... then I guess the numbers do not match.

Pete

 

This thread sure took an interesting turn.

I have no doubt the "truth" in all this will come out relative to 0846..... but in a book or possibly a really long magazine article and not here. At least not definitively. Jim is clearly not trying to pull anything.... no reason too and his past history shows action counter that type of thing. Heck, he even stated at one point that even if his P4 is proven to incorporate key parts of 0846 it will never be a "no-stories" car. So what. If it incorporates more proven 0846 parts than any other car out there...... then why NOT allow it to claim an id as #0846? Document all the details and info, do the best you can to track the history and let the chips fall where they may. Regardless of the outcome, the car will still be just as much fun passing through 8000rpm in 3d gear!

The bottom line for me is its an incredibly cool car..... probably has some sort of neat historic links either way.... and Jim has been incredibly gracious to share the details of its resurrection with us.

To that I say: THANKS.


Terry

 

Hey Paul!
No problem with that address you want. I'm getting jerked around a little by you know who, (who would have guessed?) so.... can you send me an email reminder as I have the info. you want at my shop. I'm pretty sure I have your email at the shop but a quicky email from you will help me out. Thanks!

 

Paul,
I think I still have that photo of me "surfing" on the back of my car. I think I was just kneeling down "working" on it, right? I'll send you a smaller file photo of it so you can post it for me. It's on my computer at work, not here on my home computer. PS: I never get on Fchat at work, so I'll never have a chance to post it...but I could email it real quick to ya. I think I could also reduce the size of that "Christmas P4" photo for you, & send it back to you.
I thought it was a WAY cool photo! Betcha others would think so too.
~Nick~

 

Well. I think that will do for one night, Gentlemen. I am quite astounded at the response, but still not finished yet. In fact, I think as Max (Top Speed) and David (Piper) are away racing in South Africa, until the end of the month, I'll await their return before I make another posting on the #0846 issue.
In the meantime - Wasn't this thread supposed to be discussing 'Poor Man's P4 replicas' ?

 

"... I didn't take any pix back then. Unfortunately. I saw a more or
less complete chassis with an engine in it and the front body work.
Wheels were attached to car! I was shown the chassis number 0846 on
the frame, right rear part.
Paperwork: I was shown the customs carnet for 0846. A carnet is a document like a "bond" (my poor English, sorry). The doc allows you to transport a car from country A to country B, without paying taxes.
But you have to pay customs a deposit (based on value of car) to get a carnet.

Marcel Massini"

"Marcel Massini. The last time 0846 was REALLY scene, and without question it was whole, was when Marcel saw the car in 1977 (repeat
1977, 10 years after it's last race) it was whole with motor 0846, and the car was owned by CERVAN Corporation, which was a Swiss holding company, owned by... David Piper."
Mark Ketchum

Paul
Having an opinion is one thing. Implying anything I've said is deceitful as opposed to wrong is another.

 

Jim.
So are you saying that your chassis has the chassis plate #0846 (like this one from #0844) ?

 

Are you now saying Marcel's statement is untrue?
The last time I spoke to David I told him that I had found 0846 lables and stampings on various parts of my car.
His response?
"PF used that # for P5"
Mark Ketchum and others debunked that years ago.
Do you think the pic's I posted at that time of P5's chassis are false?
At that time I also posted Marcel's statement.
You think I made that up?
Do you think he's wrong?
Do you think a Swiss co. owned by David Piper didn't fill out a customs carnet and import 0846 into Swisserland in 1977?
As for Harry the last time I spoke to him he had a lot to say about David and as I like David for the time being I'm not going to repeat it.
As for you I still condider your "cleverely" dafamatory and will act accordinly.

 

Jim. Thank you for your diatribe, but in fact you didn't actually answer my simple question in the previous post. As for my use of the word 'cleverly', I suggest that you go back at read the LAST post where I used it, before you call in the lawyers. Oh - and may I recommend you also run a spell checker against your postings before blasting them off. (Sorry couldn't resist that <g>)

 

Paul
You still haven't answered any of my questions.
You offer no evidence that anything I've posted is wrong.
You may or not be right about the P4 in the field being 0856 but implying that I posted that I though it was 0846 deceitfully as opposed to erroneously remains defamatory.
What part of " I found various 0846 stampings and labels on my car " don't you understand?
This is getting boring.
Thanks to CP ignore it won't continue to be.

 

Going back to the earlier subject of the correct B&W press photo of #0846, that should have been posted, I finally found it. Was taken at the back end of '65, with #0846 in its earlier P3 Spyder guise, alongside the prototype Dino 206S(P) (#0842 later #002), with what I believe was Enzo's German Shepherd .....

 

As requested by Nick M., here is the photo of a Foreman P4 Can-Am, that I mailed to a few people at Christmas. Please - No criticisms of the accuracy of this replica in comparison to a real 350 Can-Am. This is the way that Neil Foreman builds them - retaining the P4 nose and lower rear bodywork. The photo was originally captioned 'Christmas Tree Shopping Florida Style'

 

And the man himself - Nick M. - hard at work on his eBay-purchased Noble P4 project.

 

Oh come on P4Replica so you went to Le Mans and saw the '67 race and all of a sudden you are the worlds foremost expert on P3's and P4's ... man that is rich.

I honestly thought you had some substance to the 'I was there comment' but that is a joke.

Sorry you are just stirring the **** ... you have lost my respect.

Pete
ps: I've seen plenty of races in my life but that does not make an expert on every single car that raced by me ...

ps1: Also when a race car chassis gets repaired or modified the little chassis tag/plate does not always survive. You should know because you are such a Ferrari history expert that the Ferrari company are close to the worlds worst at keeping records and maintaining contiguous parts with the correct chassis ... again Jim has never one tried to hid anything. He has found some parts with the 0846 label and some that don't ... he has asked the questions, and will eventually get close to the right answer. As with any OLD Ferrari it is pretty hard to confirm 100% because the factory also used to play around with chassis labels anyway to get around transportation costs/tax and rules, etc.

ps2: This is one thing I really hate about the replica market, is this inferiority complex that most have. Get over it P4Replica you own a reasonable copy of a P4 no more, no less, it will never be a P4 ... be proud of what it is OR buy something else. I'm embarrassed for Mark that you turned his build process thread into your 'I need to feel good about my replica thread'. I don't own a Ferrari rather an Alfa Romeo ... but you don't see me questioning the originality of others cars, because I am happy with what I have got ... and don't live my life judging it a success whether I own or not a Ferrari OR something related to a real Ferrari. They are just cars ...

ps3: Mark you are building a great car ...

 

Pete.
I was planning to ‘let this one lie’, but seeing as you have chosen to make personal remarks about me in your post, then I feel I have no option but to respond.

Yes, I went to Le Mans in ’67. With Page & Moy Tours. A very long coach trip in those days, I remember. It was there that I first fell in love with Ferrari P4’s, and my interest has never really dwindled. I never claimed to be ‘the world’s most foremost expert on P3’s and P4’s’. However it would appear that I know quite a lot more about them than some of the people posting to this forum. I have an extensive library of books, magazine articles and contemporary photographs for reference. Many P4 replica builders have consulted me for information in the past, which, to the best of my knowledge, I gladly pass on.

You can call it ‘stirring the sh*t’ if you like, but I think these questions need to be asked. The significance of any claim to a missing Ferrari chassis number is of great importance, but that of #0846 is paramount, because it is the only P3/P4/412P chassis number that is not accounted for. And I don't care one iota about the loss of your respect.

I am perfectly aware of the sort of thing that goes on with racing car chassis numbers. In this respect, David Piper, a long-term Ferrari privateer, (bless him), through whose hands more P4 cars and spares have passed than anyone else’s, is probably one of the guiltiest parties in causing these cases of ambiguity. But you’ve got to ask yourself this question (and I’m sorry to raise it again, but it’s pretty basic): If David Piper (who supplied these parts to Jim) owned the #0846 chassis himself – Why did he go to all the trouble of building his own P4 reproduction, back in the late 70’s, only to then be allocated the unused chassis number #0900 by Ferrari ?

Now this is where you really p*ssed me off, and I guess it was done deliberately. I do not have an inferiority complex about my P4 replica. Ask anyone who knows me well, and they will tell you so. I am quite proud of it. I remember seeing articles on the Noble P4’s when they first came out in the late 80’s, and deciding there and then that I was going to have one. O.K. so it took me a few years to get round to it. Yes – I looked at a lot of other things in the meantime. After the market crashed in the mid-90’s I was looking for a real Ferrari – a 308GTB for some time. Trouble was, I wanted a RHD fiberglass car, and there aren’t that many around.

So I bought a Noble P4. I know exactly what it is. It’s a glorified kit-car with a Renault V-6 in back. The good thing about that, if the motor does go ‘pop’, I can go along to my local breakers yard and pick up another one ! It may be ‘badged’ as a Ferrari, as a good many of them are, but whenever I take it to shows, I put a notice on the dash, stating that it is a Ferrari P4 REPLICA by Noble Motorsport. As far as it’s identity goes, my own car doesn’t actually have a chassis plate. A good few Noble P4’s don’t have them in fact, for ease of registration. In fact, according to my ‘pink slip’, my car is still a 1985 Renault 25 V-6, although precious little of the original donor car remains. But I have never claimed it to be anything else other than what it is !

I too am sorry that Mark’s posting got corrupted by the #0846 saga. Look back to post #37. I did write there that “if you want to start up a new thread on this topic …… I’d like to keep this topic going on the original thread of Poor Man’s P4 Replicas”. In fact, I also tried to return to the original topic in posts #64 and #77.

I could have proliferated the argument with Jim, for instance by saying “Well I’m sorry Jim, but I can’t actually make out a door leaning against the tail of the car" (in the photo in his post #58), but as he was obviously getting very stressed out by some little P4 replica owner daring to question the integrity of his claims to the provenance of #0846, so I thought I ought to back off.

It’s a shame in one way that Jim decided to ‘document’ his ‘re-build’ in a series of disjointed posts on FerrariChat. I think the way that Mark has documented the build-up of his Foreman P4 is superb, and a far better way of doing it, and what’s more, I can’t wait to see his car in the flesh. But by posting to FerrariChat, it also allows (in theory) people to ask pertinent questions. From the way that I have been put firmly in my place, it would seem not to be the case though. Unfortunately it also gives Jim the opportunity to bask in the adulation of a fawning posse of sycophants every time he puts a rivet in, which sometimes makes the thread a bit nauseating to read.

PS - My daily driver is also an Alfa-Romeo <g>

PPS – Enough said ?

 

"But you’ve got to ask yourself this question (and I’m sorry to raise it again, but it’s pretty basic): If David Piper (who supplied these parts to Jim) owned the #0846 chassis himself – Why did he go to all the trouble of building his own P4 reproduction, back in the late 70’s, only to then be allocated the unused chassis number #0900 by Ferrari ?"




Uhhhhh a guess: Because he did not know the pieces laying around gathering dust in the back of the shop WERE the remains of 0846?

As you stated... David is/was a racer. What chassis number is where.... what part came originally from which car.... what documentation is accurate for which chassis.... none of that crap made any of the cars lap Spa any faster on a given weekend.

Also, in the late '70s the cars did not command the crazy values they do now. They were still just old racing cars. David would probably have built up his own car from whichever pieces were in the best shape and made for the fastests/easiest build. He probably would not have been digging through stuff looking for chassis id stuff to guide him.

I dont know any of these folks. Im just an enthusiast who finds it interesting. It will make for some very interesting reading when its all laid out in full, thats for sure!


Terry

 

P4Replica,

I don't have any trouble with anybody questioning the originality of Jim's car, and neither does Jim if you read his posts. Infact he thinks it is 0846, he does not state that it is ... he is trying to find that out.

Anyway I just think that you have unfairly gone about questioning Jim's posts, and have done it for the fun of getting a rise from other posters not for the sake of the truth.

And as for this comment:

Well you did in a way ... with your I was there comment. That comment was made in a way that implied that you were somehow involved with the P3's and P4's when they were new and thus knew alot more about them than the rest of us ... in the end that was not true. We all have lots of books, some of them good books some of them not, and many of us saw these cars when they were racing in the glory days ... but not many of us make the comment 'I was there' like everything Jim was saying was incorrect because I was there ...

Yes I agree that many reply posts (including some of mine) to Jims pictures are a bit over the top but it is a very interesting car in the Ferrari history, and no I am not talking about chassis numbers here but the collection of parts ... and yes I bet atleast 75% of the parts came from the original collection of P3/4 parts that Ferrari made. When you read many posts on this site they are embarrassing and quite pathetic ... like the 2 thousand posts about how beautiful somebodies new 360CS is ... when we have all seen about 2 million pictures ... in the end I guess it is a bit of a pat on ya back sort of thing (I guess people like me from down under don't really get it, but I think it is a culture difference between Americans and others).

And last of all regarding your inferiority complex or not, what was I supposed to think when a replica owner who claims to have 'been there' gets high and mightly about somebody restoring one that contains many original parts ... try putting the shoe on the other foot and you will see where I am coming from. Maybe if you had been a little less acusatory like others who have questioned ... and will continue to, then I would not have made that comment.

Regarding a P4 replica in Sydney ... er, I have never seen one. I do know of 2 replica Ferraris (a 206S and a 246 F1) which both use original Ferrari v6 engines. Beautifully made and all (and hopefully the engines were sourced from written off Ferraris and not restorable ones ), but I have really not taken much notice ...

Pete

 

Like I said, nothing wrong with skepticism but there are ways of doing it that work and then there are the big noter ways that simply piss people off.

Heh maybe P4Replica doesn't like Jim or something ... but that does not mean he can post and accuse Jim of purposely posting the wrong photo OR trying to con the world in to believing he has 0846. That is not what Jim is doing ...

Pete

 

Hey P4Rep, I have re-read and re-read your posts and have finally figured this out. This is all about a chassis number, right?

Well hell, that's easy enough to fix. Jim ping me, and I can put you in touch with some really top notch stamping guys. These guys have plenty of experience restamping old brit bikes. Duping something stamped by Luigi over 40 years ago will be a piece of cake...

My point of this little joke is that if, Napolis had wanted to pull a funny, he would have done so a l-o-n-g time ago. Putting all this on the Internet sure seems a strange way to pull of a fakey do. Me thinks perhaps you have a hidden agenda here, eh?

Dr "007" Tax

 

Heh DrTax,

I think your on to something here ... my guess is that P4Rep has a little plate stamped with 0846 on it and he was going to tack it on to his replica in the hope of fooling some rich idiot ... along with a good story on how the original engine was too badly damaged in that '67 Le Mans accident ... yep I was there and bought the remains story would hold up good with those track tickets

Now with Jim poking about and asking too many questions his plan has been blown ... thus he has to discredit Jim

Good thinking Dr "007" Tax.

Haha
Pete

 

Pete

 

Hey looks good. Can you do brit bikes?