Poor man's P4 replica project

Pete,
I was gonna stamp #0856 on this and stick it on my car !

 

Make sure you get the letters and numbers nice and crooked like an original

Pete

 

Well, Pete ....
Here is one that was posted on FerrariChat a couple of years back: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/165223.html
It's a standard looking Noble P4 Spyder (note the after-market air-conditioning trunking) and I think (though it's hard to tell from this photo), that this one is probably also PRV-powered, because the carb set-up looks like Lee Noble's optional triple twin-choke Dellorto arrangement with the front two carbs parallel to the heads, with the rearmost carb across the V. The linkage looks a nightmare, but apparently the set-up works well !
Tell me - does that rear licence plate mean anything specific in Oz ?
If you do come across it in Sydney, I'd appreciate if you could let me know, because I'd like to add it to the register (www.p4replica.com)
Thanks, Paul.

 

Hmmm most NSW number plates have 3 letters and 3 numbers. The state that the car is registered to, is the small letters above the main number ... I do not think this car is a NSW's car ... but I cannot really tell.

I do not have the right software to be able to zoom in ... and er, I'm working late ... but if you could zoom in on those letters you will find which state (there is only 7 ...) and then you could ask for help from somebody in the right state.

Pete

 

Pete.
This car was photographed at a Ferrari Club meet in SYDNEY. Click on the original thread - it says something about a 'historical plate' - like in UK, where pre '63 they were a combination of six digits, but with no (7th or 8th) letter prefix as now.
Regards, Paul.
PS - I've tried zooming in on the original photo to pick up more details on the car. The resolution just isn't there I'm afraid.

 

On the subject of that earlier post: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/165223.html please take the trouble to go back and read the 'throwaway comment' that Jim Glickenhaus made at the time: 'Both are FAKE'. Not only is he summarily dismissing a nice example of a Noble P4 replica, but also (in the 4th photo), $200K's worth of Ferrari V-12 powered Norwood P4 ! And you wonder why we P4 replica owners develop 'inferiority complexes' ????
I could get really bitter and twisted here and say "isn't that a case of the pot calling the kettle black" ?

 

Dale, while I agree with your main point... I'm glad Jim is doing what he's doing AND I'm glad he's sharing it with us... the P4 has long been my pick for most beautiful racecar ever... but I do believe it matters what # gets attributed to it. I think an analogy here might be good for this thread...

Renoir painted some of the most beautiful paintings, IMO. I'd love to put one on my wall at home, but my budget won't allow that any more than an original P4 in my garage. But I can go out and get a print of my favorite Renoir and hang it on my wall... and it will make my wall more beautiful. Or even better, I can get a print done on canvas, where an artist comes back over it with oil paints to give it more authentic texture. Lots more money, but much more authentic-looking replica of the original. With that I more beautify my wall, and further I can feel like I am seeing something more like the historic original. Or, for a couple more zeroes on the end of that price tag, I can get a top artist to do a full reproduction of the Renoir I desire. If they are good, the reproduction will be beyond my ability to tell the difference between the two. But it will BE different... it won't be the one that Renoir did... it won't be the first... it will lack the historic significance... it won't be the museum piece that the original is.

So, Jim's P4 is a great-looking P4... masterful... when I get to see it in person, I will enjoy seeing one of the most beautiful cars in existence. That alone, I agree with Dale, is enough to salute Jim's effort. And that alone will make my day!

But even better, Jim is going out of his way to reproduce it as the original was -- doing much research -- examining photos. Thus, when I get to see it in person, I will be able to experience much what it would have been like to see an original P4. That makes it even better, and Jim's effort all the more noble.

But even better, Jim is using as many of the original Ferrari parts as he possibly could. Not only does it look like the original, it actually is, at least in part, original Ferrari-produced P3 / P4 parts! Whether that's 20% or 80%, that makes it even more authentic, and at least somewhat historic.

There appears to be a real possibility that the construction is substantially the lost P3/4 #0846... a car that competed LeMans successfully in the 60s... a major historical piece... a museum piece... the opportunity to see that in person is very special. Just as I might go to Le Louvre to see the original Renoir, even if I have an accurate reproduction hanging on my wall at home.

So, while I agree with your main point, Dale... I do find the research into its lineage very interesting AND very important. And I would like to think the educated historians and skeptics would all happily applaud Jim's efforts to date and work with him cooperatively to substantiate or refute its lineage... so that we can all appreciate it for exactly what it is... and all that it is. (As opposed to attacking him, implying ill-intent, or any other useless waste of words.)

And, FWIW, I would happily trade some Renoir art works for an original P3 or P4... some of Ferrari's best art work. Jim, I am green with envy! (no matter what its lineage is determined to be)

And back to the source of this thread, I also salute Mark's efforts. Even a pure replica, if reasonably accurate, will be one of the most beautiful cars on the planet. And I would love to have one in my garage to enjoy anytime I please.

In lieu of either, I guess I'm just stuck here enjoying both via the Internet... via F-chat! Thank you both for that.

 

P4Replica,

I umm'ed and arrr'ed about replying to this post, but I am glad that we have finally hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately that is the main problem with replicas, in the end no matter how beautiful, how exact, and how much they cost they will always be a replica ... and thus to some easy to dismiss.

I have seen one GT40 replica up close that was absolutely beautifully built that would have put the originals to shame.

This issue, in the end has to be thought about very carefully before one starts down the replica path, because one day it will come to a head and it is a touchy personal subject.

I will never be able to afford a historically significant Ferrari and would chop of my left testicle to own a 250LM, but unless I won Lotto about 10 times it will just never happen. I though have seriously thought about making one ... but this replica issue is what holds me back. Part of me after putting so much effort in to this car would rather design and build my own car of unique design ... thus I am at a crossroads. Would the thrill of driving the closest possible thing to my dream car be strong enough to handle the 'it's only a replica' comments from the knockers ...

In the end I think Jim is a engineer type like us all that gets his kicks out of the built/restoration process just like the rest ... but he is fortunate to be in a position to be able to play with (probably ) the real thing. I don't think he doesn't appreciate the skill required to build them, because he has commented about GT40 replicas before ... but I guess I should let Jim answer that ...

Funny thing is I am not too keen on replicas myself, as I have a real dislike for those that ruin real Ferraris for yet another 250GTO ... but in your case and Mikes that is not what happened ...

Enjoy the drive P4Rep, it must be fun ... I'm just enjoy seeing anything interesting being restored or built ...

Pete

 

I can think of many reasons... but not knowing the context here, its hard to evaluate... I'm curious, though, so I'll ask:

When did Mr. Piper build this #0900?

Why did Mr. Piper build this #0900? Was he building a racecar to go racing? Or a museum piece? Or a car to drive around town?

Why did he need/want a chassis number at all? Why not just leave it unnumbered?

Just curious... but obviously the answers have a tremendous bearing on the answer to your question... and the implications that can be drawn from it.

 

What I cannot understand about Pipers #0900 car is why Ferrari even gave it a chassis number???

I believe it does not even have a P3/P4 engine but instead a 365GT/4 engine.

Pete

 

Pete
David's 0900 has a P4 engine, gearbox, and as many or more original P4 parts
as my car. The car with the Daytona engine is yet again another car David was involved with and the "Daytona Engine" may actually be a Lambo engine.
As for my chassis. Ferrari S.p.A. has for years been made aware of why I feel it contains substantial parts of the remains of 0846. They have seen photo's of welds and read statements of people with first hand knowledge. They have helped me to restore my car by recasting uprights for me listed as
"P4 SUSPENSION PA" on a Ferrari NA. invoice.
None of this is new. Indeed photo's of my restoration have appeared on a website which states "Copyright c Ferrari S.p.A" for years and on the same website they have placed "330 P4 ROSSA CORSA 1966 7 2000"
(Car Model/exterior colour/Year of construction/Month bought/Year bought)
in "Ferrari Garage" under "Your Ferrari" This was done after I submitted information which required chassis # which I submitted 0846.
As I've said before when I finish the restoration of my car all of this will be published in an appropriate place.
Best

 

Brian.
In answer to your questions - see below cutting from an article in 'Old Motor' dated October 1979. So, as I think I said in a previous post, #0900 was built in the mid-70's. Why did David want a chassis number ? Easy - so he could race it in historic events ! Still doing so even as we write (currently racing in South African Springbok Series) -aged 74 with an artificial leg !

 

NOW THAT was a good post... this adds to the discussion thank you

 

This is all just too much. I cant stand it!!!!

Forget the 917 replica. Im going to have to build a P4 replica. With Ferrari power. As accurate as I can make it. As soon as the 911S hotrod is done.

Where to start ?



Terry

 

Getting a little off topic here, but I feel the same way. I was lucky and a friend who was a terrific amateur painter made some copies for me of Monet and Degas' works. But without signing it as 0846, err with the artist's name. And that's good enough for me.

Coming back on the P4 thread: As I've said before I have the deepest respect for Jim and his project and applaud him for it. I also respect P4Replica's knowledge and passion for the car and were happy if I had one of those replicars myself.

Unfortunately P4Replica decided to join with a splash and now we're left with this unnecessary battle. I wish that could get sorted somehow, because at the end of the day we all love the same thing: These gorgeous cars.

 

Hmmm... "so he could race it". Perhaps he didn't want to start with a damaged frame... especially one that had already been hacked and re-welded in the P3/4 conversion, let alone bent in a big crash. Sometimes its easier to start from scratch than to patch and reinforce... especially when you're trying to maximize stiffness while minimizing weight.

Had you answered "so he could put it in a museum", then leaving the 0846 behind would make no sense. But if he's wanting to race it, performance and expense in getting that performance might have outweighed historic significance by a long shot.

OR, perhaps he recognized the historic value of someday restoring 0846 to precisely its LeMans form, and thus he didn't want to "butcher" the historic chassis into a new racecar.

OR, ... < there are other reasonable explanations >

I'll agree that article states that there was no chassis... but that wasn't necessarily David's statements... that was the author's own re-summarization of what happened. A direct statement from David would be far more conclusive.

Thus, without more information, I would NOT consider that conclusive or even particularly compelling. However, it IS very interesting...

 

I agree Brian, if he already owned 0846, or even another 'real' P3/4, why not put that back together and go racing. After all original 250GTOs, Lms still race hard and they aren't exactly cheap.

Why also would you keep this 'clone' and sell the more interesting chassis?

It is all very interesting and adds to the comments I've read/discussed before about Piper moving parts/cars around to make it very, very difficult to follow the linage ... why did he do this? ... I've always thought it was simply because he saw the cars as race cars and thus treated them as so ... instead of historically significant art pieces ... now I am not sure.

One thing I can say is that most people I have met that have been heavily involved with motorsport over many years are usually very good wheeler and dealers ... and cars and parts are always moving around and through them ... with a few or many bucks made on the way

Very interesting ...
Pete

 

Sounds a lot like Bernie. The father of all wheeler dealers, racers and motorsport zampanos.

 

Perfect! That is exactly how I feel. I know I'll never have Jim's fortune and will never be able to have the real deal (of a P4 that is, I do have a Ferrari, but that's neither here nor there). But I also know I would love to have a well done replica with a real Ferrari engine (that's where I strongly differ from P4Replicar and his Renault engine) like the one on the website for sale. And that could actually be within my monetary reality and I could even afford to take it to a track. Would I try to show it off as the real deal? Hell no! People who know would laugh and rightfully so. There are only that many Glicks around who can actually afford to DRIVE the real deal.

A friend of mine just got a superformance AC Cobra replicar. I think that is cool as hell. Is he trying to pass it off as the real deal? Again no, but is he letting me drive it? Yes, and we have fun doing so and taking it to Denny's. THAT's where the fun of replicars lie: You have something that looks like the real deal, handles somewhat like it and you can not only afford it, but afford to park it on the street without having a baby over it.

 

James: again I appreciate that you are doing this, sharing it with us, and that you are doing it in a manner which pleases you and is at least as authentic as any other answer that we have to date.This is a beautiful car and an admirable project, dont let all the talk wear you out.

 

Horsefly,

The problem is I do not own a real Ferrari yet. Thus I could spend a fortune and build myself a 250LM replica (sorry guys, I prefer the 250LM over the P4) or I could buy myself some sort of 308. While it would only be a 308 it would still be fun, probably similar performance and I would be able to enter it is race series ...

OR I could spend the same amount of money and time and build myself a competitive race car and go racing again ... this option has lots going for it to me

In the end I have never really understood why people build replicas of race cars. Okay an old designed race car can now be driven on the road, but other than replica series, and a bit of cruising what can you do with them???, that you cannot do better with a simple old 308, or a Formula Ford race car.

Maybe P4Replica can help answer that one ...
Pete

 

Pete....

Its simple really.

I want to get in a car that looks, drives, handles and hopefully sounds alot like a real P4. Then I want to drive it around. On the street and the track.

I will go Vrrrrrrrooooomm Vroooooooooom while driving it. I will brake late and accelerate hard out of corners. I will pretend to be Amon. In my mind.. I will win Daytona! I know its not real. So what.... its still drop dead gorgeous, fun to drive, fast as heck , well, COOL.

Still, it may be just as much fun to build a 917 replica and pretend to be Rodrigueze..... still contemplating.

If I did not own another Ferrari already, I would not buy or build a replica. But owning a Ferrari and Porsche already.... a P4 replica would be tons of fun!


Terry

 

Thanks!

 

On the subject of replicating p4's I have been asked to supply my carbon fibre body panels and wishbones etc, for P4 replica which will be powered by a 360 ferrari engine runing Motec engine management. Which must produce North of 450hp. I think this will be a really excellent track day tool.