Poor man's P4 replica project

I have a couple of questions mostly for Jim. Regarding the p4 chassis, does it have a chassis number on it? Im assuming that ferrari would have had a few extra chassis' for the race cars incase of accident so they could rebuild the cars. Is this one of those? The body is new, who made it? Is the engine 0846? If its a genuine ferrari chassis regardless of chassis number or none at all, I would be happy. If its a P4 engine, great. If its a bunch of P4 left overs put together to make a P4 then I can see how it would fall into the replica catagory sort of. Will it be accepted by the other P4 owners as the real thing? If it is considered a "cloud" at ferrari events, it would still be the closest thing you could get to the real thing.
What is the cost of a noble replica? Could you not buy a TR instead and have money left over? The noble replica or any other is clearly a replica and it will be the ferrari community that decides if jims is too.

 

Yes it will be an exciting track day tool, but it is not a replica of a P4, it is a look a like.

Jim reminded me of this when I stupidly questioned Mark's brakes on his 348 powered replica ... Jim correctly stated that the original P4 brakes are pretty useless and simple too, thus what Mark is doing is probably going to 'replicate' the braking power of a genuine P4.

Thus with all of you that lust after a replica and quote such as Tspringer:

Building a P4 look a like with over 450 hp means that you are not replicating a P4 at all. I believe the P4 had/has around 380 hp.

Thus that car will be a copy and will not feel like driving a P4 at all ... thus why not design your own car ... or simply track a 360 Challenge with a hot motor???

In the end 90% of replica builders simply want a car that looks like some old car but loose the plot and understandably get too excited and try to improve on the original. Every improvement you make moves you further and further away from replicating the car you lust after.

I would bet a lot of money that if you drove P4Replica's car, Mark's car and this to be built car and then drove a genuine P4 ... only one car would drive any thing like a P4! ... now isn't producing these replicas supposed to be about replicating the driving experience ... ??

If I ever do build a 250LM replica I will be ensuring it has the same power (hp and torque characteristics), same weight, same braking ability, same roll centres, etc. and thus while it will not be a 250LM I hope it will drive as close as possible to the real thing.

Thus in conclusion producing cars like that 450hp monster shoots a big hole in this argument about why some make replicas ... there are many new type race cars that you can buy which would have similar performance to this car, but in the end many want to have a car that looks like a P4, but not the performance ...

Pete

 

Actually thinking about it a bit more, Mark's P4 replica will probably drive reasonably close to the real think ... close to right power, brakes, etc.

Pete

 

It seem you either love them or you hate 'em. For instance, take the Ferrari (ex-365GT/4) V-12 powered device, owned by Max Theiler - the President of the Swiss Ferrari Club, which uses modified Noble bodywork. He races this all over Europe, having competed in the Nurburgring OldTimer GP for the last few years. Glowing praise for it, every time it appears. And then he turns up to the Ollon-Villars last year. Ooops ! See comments in paragraph 8 from Marcel Massini: http://www.ferrariownersclub.co.uk/happenings/2003/september/ollon_villars/text.asp
The kids seem to love it though !
Jenks' quote in paragraph 7 also makes for interesting reading - particularly with regard to the #0846 provenance issue in question .....

And the cost of a Noble P4 ? Well I've seen them advertised from as little as $10K (on eBay - as restoration projects) up to $159K (with a 330GT V-12) -and even one vendor asking 350K Euros for a Daytona-engined one !

 

Okay, let's say I want to build a hot track car of my own... now I want a sweet-looking body for it... so, I go hire Pininfarina to pen the lines... probably not... so, I choose the best-looking car I've ever seen and replicate that... for me, that would mean the P3 or P4!

You say the above like it doesn't make sense to replicate the look but not the performance. I argue that either makes sense, it just depends upon your goals. In the case of a legendary beauty like the P3 / P4, whose availability is almost nil, replicas are a noble thing... whether just the looks or the whole package.

The only thing I would find objectionable is someone who replicates the looks without attempting to be accurate... I'd find appalling a "look similar" car because it would confuse/dilute people's image of the real thing.

 

Like this, for instance, Brian - the French Coste C1 'P4 Replica'. TRULY appalling .....

 

, oh come on guys what is the difference. You all agree that you can bastardise the mechanics and performance, but you are not allowed to play with the 'great' Pininfarina shape!@! Pot calling the kettle black , no wonder replicas get such a bad rap, when even ones that you guys consider good are so far from the real thing it is amusing.

The Noble replica, as already discussed, as a raised roof ... and yet nobody gets upset about that.

In the end it all comes down to personal opinions, and IMO unless you get the details spot on so it really looks and drives like a P4 then I'm not sure what you have, other than your own interpretation of what you want as a car ... but not a P4 replica ... a car influenced by a P4 maybe but that is as close as it gets.

Anyway I'm going round in circles ... , enjoy the drive, etc.
Pete

 

Finally

 

Actually that would bother me. As P4Replica pointed out some guys in Germany had that fixed. If I had this replica, I'd do the same thing. I noticed this odd roof line right away when I went to Noble's website.

I think it is weird, that they didn't try to fix that differently like eg. very flat seats. It is not so much the deviation from the original that bothers me, but the fact that it looks so odd and jumps right in your eye.

 

Which all goes to show how little you know Pete, because the shape of the P4 was absolutely NOTHING to do with 'Pininfarina', but actually the work of Piero Drogo's Modena Carrozzerie, in collaboration with Mauro Forghieri.

However, I admit that it was politically incorrect of me to have criticised another make of replica. In fact Monsieur Coste no longer produces his C1 'P4-lookalike', and has evolved his product into something COMPLETELY different -the C2.

 

Well actually it's not that bad. It depends on the angle you look at the car from, as to how noticeable the 'hump' in the roof is. From some angles, it is barely visible. See: http://public.fotki.com/P4Replica/my_p4_replica/
As far as 'some guys in Germany' - there is one owner, Bernd Raup, who has successfully lowered his roofline, and in the U.K., again only one owner - Eddie Perk. Both of these gentlemen are fairly short - Eddie is 5' 2", and I can remember a review of his car in one of the kit car magazines where despite all the praise for it's beautiful construction and detailing, the taller of the two drivers was unable to get in the cockpit !

 

If you are taller, then there is nothing much you can do about lowering the roofline of a Noble P4. I am 5' 10", and that is about the maximum comfortable height for a driver. Even then, I'm sat on only 1/2" of foam and my head is touching the side window. If I wear a helmet in the car, I have to tilt my head to one side - which on one occasion going round Rockingham Speedway's relatively gentle banking, I must say, I found rather disorienting.

However, one taller American owner of this Ferrari V-8 powered Noble P4 came up with an innovative solution .....

 

Ouch. That doesn't sound like much fun. I'm 5'10" as well (or 1.73m as I call it) and of course would like to wear a helmet. Sounds like that isn't really possible.

You mention the side window. How does this pan out in the spider version? Still an issue with the side window or the sky's the limit?

 

So when you spend $375K on a Norwood P4 replica, you wouldn't expect the same problems. In fact they're not the same, because all Norwood P4's were built as Spyders. But one taller owner, a Dennis Mackle, complained about wind buffetting, and so Bob had to take the car back and raise the height of the windshield, resulting in the strange angle of the side window ......

 

Don't forget that these kits were produced in England, so Noble Spyders also had a detatchable roof section, for when it rains (often). The side windows were also removable from the doors, so most people would drive the car without them in sunny weather. Some owners also fabricated a suitable box to sit in the 'spare wheel area' to carry their roof sections and side windows.

 

Nifty.

Personally I'd prefer a closed version, but with the height issues, maybe the removable top is the way to go. I'm probably the only one on the planet, but I prefer a roof over my head. Never take the top off my 308 GTS.

 

Actually, Andreas, thinking about it, I got that bit about the height problem slightly wrong. It is NOT the side window that my head (or my helmet) bangs against, in fact, but the top edge of the door frame. On a Noble Berlinetta, the doors are cut deeper into the roof, compared to an original P4, to make access easier. Take a look again at that photo of Bernd's car, and compare it to one of mine. Not only has he significantly lowered the roof, but he has also lowered the door heights too, which must make it darned awkward to get in and out of !
Noble Berlinetta doors are a one piece moulding, and completely fiberglass, unlike the real cars which had fibreglass doors with aluminium side window frames, so the Noble door / window frames are thicker in that area to give them strength. Hence the need to wear a flat cap, when driving on bumpy roads !

One other car I that forgot to mention in the previous posts was, of course, Max Wakefield's - Max is currently posting to these forums as 'P4Racer'. Although now modified out of all recognition, with precious little of the original car left, Max's car actually started life as a Noble P4 Spyder (with the removable roof section).
Before it became an out-and-out track-day car, Max was particularly keen on realism, and apart from fitting the Lamborghini V-12, in place of his Renault PRV motor, he spent a considerable amount of money with Neil Foreman having his roofline lowered, and the car re-painted in the #0848 Filipinetti colour scheme.
What he didn't reckon on at the time was being unable to wear his helmet in the finished car, and so it gained a feature more usually found on GT40's - a 'Gurney dome'. In fact now, when Max races the car (mostly in South Africa) he runs it without the roof section or side windows fitted .....

 

Tifosi

If it helps I am 6' tall and fit in my NF P4 Berlinetta Replica with a Helmet, it is tight but careful design of the seat/ driving position has resulted in it being comfortable

 

That's almost ironic: A replica based on Jim's 0848 and then using a dome as Jim has it on his GT40.

Mark Collins, thanks for that update. Maybe I'll come and visit you on my next trip to the UK? Would love to see that car in person.

 

Heh, I never have promoted myself as a P4 expert . It does not surprise me that Pininfarina had nothing to do with a race car ... he did not design the 250GTO either.

I was simply commenting on the farce about what is an acceptable replica or not.

Pete

EDIT: I read about Max's car in a Classic and Sportscar mag ... nicely done with a lot of work making all the details right.

EDIT2: Okay now I am confused about Max's (P4Racer) car(s) and his comments, ie:

What is the "moody P4"?, because the one you show above was in the Classic and Sportscar magazine is simply a very good Noble replica. If there are original parts on it they are insignificant parts like mirrors and gauges, etc. not hubs, suspension and chassis, etc. Plus the engine is a Lamborgini 3.5 v12 mated to a Porsche gearbox, with I assume Noble suspension, etc.

This car is a wonderful example of what can be built from a Noble kit, but lets not start talking about it like it is a 'real' P4 ... if the "moody P4" is refering to this car then I have to say I find this comment: "which I built from various bits of racing cars" to be very misleading.

Thus I have to assume that the "moody P4" = 0900A and has nothing to do with the Lamborgini engined replica ... ?, and thus does Max own 3 P4's, or are there 2 Max's .

 

My team mate in endurance racing is 6ft3.5 and he fits into my moody P4. I am 6ft and we both sit on the floor to fir. but its not uncomfortable. If I need to race with the roof in place I can still manage because it has a blister in it for my helmet. I think its a matter of how much padding you place below your backside.

 

P4Racer,

Er, no answer yet , but from the above I assume that the "moody P4" = "Noble Lamborgini v12 powered replica".

Why do you refer to it as the "moody P4"?,
and what parts are you refering to with the comment about race car parts?

I mean no harm just interested ... but I do find it amusing that there appears to be an attempt to add province to a Noble replica as a P4 ... why it is a great replica?, and I read over and over the article in Classic and Sportscars ... made me think about building one quite a few times.

... gee I do feel for Jim, when he has by far the most 'real' P4 on this site and is getting grilled by replica owners ... it is a tough world out there

Pete

 

Mark.
The reason for the extra bit of headroom, is also because the bodywork in a Foreman P4 effectively sits on top of the lower chassis rails, whereas in a Noble, the bodywork is flush with the bottom of the rail - and hence gains you 40mm, at the expense of slightly increased ride height - which of course you can (and no doubt will) adjust out for track use. I think this statement is true for all Foreman P4's except Neil's Can-Am - where he made a chassis with lowered mounting points. Hence the 'down-in-the weeds look.
Paul.
PS - Has Neil finished painting your car yet ?

 

I love my replica. I dont think of it as a replica, I think of it as a racing car in the shape of a P4. Its pretty accurate, and thats largely because every time we deviate from the original the car fails to perform like it should.

Its taken me around the world racing, its made me very close frineds where ever we have been. I am a fully funded racing driver, but I still return to the P4 whenever I can. Whenever we race we are up against Cobra's 250 Lm's, 206Sp Dino's, Chevron's McLarens. So back in your arm chair if it offends you. But if it doesn't get on build one. I have all the moulds and will gladly help

there should be a couple of pics of my car on www.maxf1.co.uk

 

If you read other articles on Max's P4 (and there were plenty others besides C&SC), particularly in the Kit Car magazines - you will see it described there as a Foreman P4 - giving Neil Foreman the credit for all the work he had done on the car. If Max were to post the photos that he has sent me, then perhaps you might just about get a grasp on why he calls it a Moody P4. They have fitted new carbon-fibre bodywork; all new suspension; F1 uprights; Hewland box, etc., etc. Like I said, Pete in my earlier post "THERE IS PRECIOUS LITTLE OF THE ORIGINAL NOBLE LEFT. Is that clear enough ?

Your turn Max .....