Poor man's P4 replica project

Max,

Thanks for the answer and I can well understand why you love your replica, as it is the best P4 replica I have ever seen (er, via a magazine). And I 100% agree with your attitude at trying to make it as close to an original as possible ... and that is what I read when I read the Classic $ Sportscar article. Infact I think I kept that magazine because of your car. It does not offend me as it is what it is ... a great replica.

As for building some sort of replica, I still have not made up my mind ... but you never know.

Pete

 

Gee P4Replica, you do get excited easily ... imagine how Jim feels!

I thought "Moody" was a person not an emotive description (ie. happy, sad, etc), like the guys that build the original GT40s ... hence I asked the question.

And as I stated in my other posts it is a great replica ... but no matter what is changed underneath, and how many race parts, etc. it still is a great replica as Max has clearly stated, and I would be proud to own that car.

I was just questioning Max's original post which made it sound like they were original P4 parts ... my misunderstanding

So I correct my point:
"Moody P4" = "Max's P4 replica"

Thanks
Pete

 

I have two cars I refer to as P4's The moody is called that because in England a moody car is one with a story attached. It is quite special to me. and maybe the race parts are so because I only use the car for racing. Every year we change parts of the car, and over time it suffers the "axe head and axe handle" theory. As in the car you read about in Classic and sportscar is hung up in my garage as spare parts save a few essential items

The bodywork is made from carbon fibre, which is fairly race orientated.

The wishbones and front uprights are made by Allen Howell, who ran Ralt F1 teams development, and Arrows as well, which I would say makes them fairly race orientated.

The engine is dry sumped, with a fairly revvy cam. Infact the whole thing is full of race parts. It produces 420 bhp at 7000 revs, which is quite close to the original. Its also the same capacity as a P4 at just under 4.0ltrs. The swirl pot, and the scavenege pump were made by Pace. The exhaust is straight through and is no longer legal. You may know the story about the lambo V12 origins.

The gearbox is a Hewland DG300 dog box, which is certainly not a road car box.

The radiator, is a radtec big mother triple passed with constant bleed.

The instrument cowl, the gear selector, the body work catches, a number of the instruments come from 0854. Likewise the wing mirror shrouds also came from Davids stock of parts. I think we can all agree that they are race parts.

The steering rack is a race item milled from billet.

It runs 10.5" inch wide front slicks and 14" wide rears.

The noble chassis has been all but diched in favour of a stiffer set up. I say all but because there are a few bits in the centre section that are not worth removing. We have removed the noble chassis because it was heavy and the geometry it supported was bad for bump steer and adjustability. By doing this alone we saved over 100kgs

The bodywork was shaped by using Davids 0900 body.

The shocks are all race parts.

The front brakes are AP and have other mods to improve braking.

The dricve shafts are made by GKN and the CV joints came from my F3000 car.

Ho hum its getting late, but I have a list of things that have been replaced since that article.

next year we will change the windscreen for a perspex item. and now im struggling to think what part is noble.

I think the only provenance I have added is that it races with some wonderful machinery. And that it is accepted as an equal in racing which is enough for me.

On the subject of feeling for Jim and If I could work out how to post a pic of my other P4 I think you may think better of Poor Old Jim being harrassed.

 

Sounds impressive ... I feel sorry for the genuine cars that have to race against this 'modern' race car that looks like an old car ... sounds unfair to me

Anyway:

"Moody P4" = "Max's P4 replica/race car/copy"

Pete
ps: thanks for explaining what Moody means for me ... never heard of that term before.

 

The P3 had 420-430 horse and the P4 with fuel injection had 450 bhp. The brakes on the cars are very very strong. Which you will know has a lot to do with pad materials.

The feel of the car will come down to power to weight and tyres. In their day the sportscars were lapping Brands in about 50 seconds. The same cars are now doing 46 seconds. No changes, save the tyres. The old boulders no longer being made. So how does one replicate that? The feeling one gets of driving a car on the limit, provided the geometry is adjustable will be much the same from one car to the next. Or it should be, because each driver has his own technique and and he will tune his/her handling to suit his/her style. I prefer corner entry oversteer and exit understeer. I know people who like the opposite.

David Pipers 275Lm is so well sorted that other LM's cant hold a candle to it. Does this mean, he is getting the wrong driving experience????

A p4 is a sprightly preformer, pushing through 200mph and getting to 60 in the same speed as an F50.

it has circa 500bhp per ton. Therefore I reckon a car with similar power, and weight given bump steer of about the same as the original, and wheelbase and track of about the same, stands a good chance of being similar to drive.

I dont have the torque figures for a P4, but its going to be nothing below 3k and quite a lot at 8k.

I hope this helped in some way

 

Totally agree.

Pete

Edit: As for Piper's LM, his car sounds like the development has never stopped, where others have sat in museums for many wasted years ...

 

it is unfair, and thats why we dont get asked to race if we build mega powerful cars. I have 450 bhp per ton, and my lap time around goodwood is spot on the same as a P4. For some reason I am one second slower in Cape Town. I get asked to race because the crowd love the car, the fellow competitors love it. The race track owners love it.

In many ways, im not tuning up an origina car, like so many of todays owner/drivers do. For example a lightweight E-type will now run 10secs a lap faster than it did in period. Why? Because Cosworth have just spent $180,000 of the owners money on the engine.

Life is unfair, and racing is an extreme, you win you loose, clear cut. Though they do give you a pat on the back for comming second.

Tell me how to post a photo and Ill post a couple..

 

Really? Now that is weird.

So, you'd limit sus travel, use an ill performing shock setup and improperly setup a car to retain that "vintage feel"?

 

Thats quite a funny observation.

I have two roof sections. One to please the nose pickers who know all about everything and watch from their arm chairs, and one to use should it be torrential while racing. And yes, like Mike Parkes of ferrari fame, a roof blister is required...

 

I think that would suit cars of yesteryear. Today, where shocks must remain original the inards are removed and ohlins or penske jump in. Likewise ignition packs

I dont think theres an ill set up car racing successfully these days. Sadly

 

You can copy mine. But remember a p4 chassis is pretty close to what you described, all be it very beautiful and thin and reasonably light.

The real trouble is cost, and you can throw a lot of money at these things. Whats your budget?

 

Yes I used to involved in classic car racing in NZ (at a very much lower level, saloon car stuff) and many cars (some of them mine) ended up modern race cars with old looking bodies on them ... which was totally out of spirit with what classic car racing is supposed to be about. Personally if you get the racing bug that bad you should move on and race in a modern appropriate series ... which is what I did (but again only at club level).

Select the 'Manage Attachments' button in the Additional Options (below the Submit Reply button) before you submit a reply. This will enable you to upload pictures from your own computer. Pictures have to be a certain size and extension, like jpg, etc.

Would love to see an engine cover off shot of your race track P4 weapon.

Pete

 

So I hear; wouldn't know as I spend most of my time getting passed...

Now it's clearer. I originally (mis)read your post, and thought people in the series , using new tech., were dialing in "vintage" charactaristics. When you said "it will have the same bumpsteer as the original" I thought no measures were taken in the elimination of poor handling, in order to preserve periodpiece nostalgia.

 

Quite right. Theres not a workshop running historics that hasn't eliminated bump steer.

 

But if you have to use org. shock bodies, how do you get by using new offset steering rack bushing, ball joints and the relocation of tie-rod pick ups? It would seem odd that org. shock bodies must be retianed, but that sus. pick up points and such is open.

 

You can change your steering arm pickups or just cronk your steering arms. it depends on how savage the rules are. Everyone produces photos of old cars showing different set ups and thus its difficult to Police

Harder for touring cars, but odd things happen. Read Mark Donahue "the unfair advantage"

 

Piper has the only P4 drawings that are known of. He was given them by old man Ferrari and they have been used four times

once for 0900
once for my other car 0900a
once for JGs car
once for an american last year.

 

Have it (donahue book), but am still chewing through millikan & millikan.
You have Fred Puhn's book? I'd suggest it; most of the published work at this level is getting dated, but a decent resource nonetheless.
Tell me, they check ride heights at scrutinnering?

 

depends on class

I race a benetton F1 car and they sure check that
The moody P4 they don't or havent yet, but its optimum ride height seems to be reasonably high 75mm front 110 rear

not read it but certainly will, is it on amazon?

 

F1 car. Well, you certainly do it right. I'm humbled (truely.) I'm still in the fendered pigs.
Yes, Puhn's volumes are available via amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0912656468/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-9747407-0474440#reader-link
Another good one is: "Chassis Engineering/Chassis Design, Building & Tuning for High Performance Handling," by Herb Adams (also on Amazon).
Hope you find these of use.

 

If you like that f1 sort of thing you can see it all on www.zigzagracing.com


ill sure buy those books

 

Yet you seem to have a problem with 'Napolis having (precious little of) 0846. Oh, the irony (iron knee).

I'm the biggest Doubting Thomas there is, but I know about the nature of failure/success/human nature - that through his actions - the man is not a fool, nor is he taking Ferrarichat to be fools.

Has it occured to you that 'Napolis, being a successful businessman who has seen more millions come and go than he's had heartbeats, would not jeopardize his reputation, and (in)directly, his financial capacity - in this ever-shrinking-world over a car (remember, the car is not for sale - via a grave error such as misrepresentation he would lose face, and business)? Has it occured to you that 'Napolis, already being a caretaker of considerable renown - of another highly regarded, multiple-show-winning car would not misrepresent himself or a car in order to score points with Ferrarichatters? Since you like to bandy the word we about so much, let me inform you - We're the last people in the world 'Napolis needs to prove anything to. The proof is in the pudding, the recipe for success has been presented to us. But, trust me on this one - 'Napolis has too much at stake to offer a recipe for disaster.

Now to answer your next inevitable "clever" and/or "false" question - has it ever occured to you that the stampings/markings/proof/secret ingredient/Shroud of Turin - call it what you will - are not for immediate consumption? That as far as Ferrarichat goes, he's "saving the best for last"? That "the jury" - not Ferrarichat, but those whose opinion really make or break - is seeing, has seen, or will see the "evidence" before it hits the papers (The papers being Ferrarichat)? Until that day, the "evidence" is sealed, and I accept that. See the preceding paragraph for further amplification as to why. In the meantime, 'Napolis P4 remains is it was - wheat, not chaff.

 

There are a number of areas that a NF P4 deviates from the original. The most noticable is the height of the hoop "basket handle" behind the driver. This is the carried on into the rear body.

If you want ultra close then you have to spend big bucks. If you just want a good interpretation then theres no doubt the NF is a good car.