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Primer for aftermarket EFI?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by GrigioGuy, Feb 25, 2004.

  1. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Nov 26, 2001
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    Dindu Nuffin
    Greetings.

    I was wondering if anyone had some good primers for the aftermarket EFI world? I'd like to know more about them, but I don't even know where to start looking. All my searches seem to send me to tuner sales sites, not technical ones.

    Thanks
    t
     
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  3. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
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    Charles
    I converted mine a year ago--go to electromotive's web site and down load the TEC-3 manual and software book--good info. also FAST FuelAirSystems has some good stuff
     
  4. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
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    Charles
    PS I love having the Electromotive direct spark units but wish i had bought the MOTEC computer for the injection--The TEC-3 already failed once and had to have the circuit board changed out.
     
  5. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison F1 Rookie
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    Jul 29, 2002
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    A good primer book for aftermarket fuel injection is:

    "Fuel Injection", Installation, Performance Tuning, Modifications.

    By Jeff Hartman Published by Motorbooks International on their Powerpro series.

    It's just starting to get a bit dated as the publishing date is 1993, but it does cover all the fundementals and theory of fuel injection and gives some pretty good examples of aftermarket conversions. While it doesn't have today's state of the art systems, it does have conversion examples using Haltech and Accel DFI.
    Both control spark and fuel and the info can readily be used on current systems as the basics are the basics.

    Highly recommended, and will teach you what you need to know to be "dangerous"

    Jeff Davison
     
  6. GrigioGuy

    GrigioGuy Splenda Daddy
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    Thanks for the suggestions. I've got some reading ahead. I'm sure I'll have a ton of questions soon. :D
     
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  8. Mule

    Mule F1 Rookie
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    Jun 25, 2003
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    Look in the Auto section at Barnes and Noble. I saw at least one book there on FI last week.
     
  9. zff

    zff Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    145
    Hawaii
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    Ken
    Your TEC-3 blew up? Was that a fluke or are they prone to those kinds of failures?

    I've come across almost no information on 308 EFI conversions using ECUs other than Electromotive. That's the main reason I'm planning to use a TEC3 myself. However, if it turned out TEC3s are unreliable, I would have to seriously reconsider another brand.

    I've downloaded (printed and bound) the TEC3 manual, and it does make a good primer for standalone engine management systems, but is there a website, magazine, forum, or other resource that has "real world" aftermarket EMS info? Something with articles like "Is the universal TEC3 better than the drop-in AEM EMS in your car?", "Choosing the right Haltech or MOTEC ECU for your project", "Good ignition/EFI ECU combos", tuning tips, installation guides, etc.?
     
  10. DGS

    DGS Four Time F1 World Champ
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  11. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
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    ZFF--
    I bought my TEC-3 unit for 2 reasons.. 1- they were one of the first doing this and 2- i also wanted the direct spark units to replace my distributers.

    on hind sight---

    Several sources have told me that the TEC-3 algorithm is not the best and MOTEC offers a better product. I am not familiar with MOTEC but i am beginning to look into them.

    Currently i am running a v-8 in my car whils i am continuing to build my v-12 motor. I figgured that setting up EFI on this V-8 would be a good learning tool so I did not mess up an unreplacable v-12 motor.

    I will very likely buy a set of (2) 3 coil spark units from Electromotice and hook them up to a Motec -800 unit for EFI control.

    PS--- just discovered this part---since you will be going from a mostly vacuum operated system to an electric one--GET A BIGGER ALTERNATOR-- or carry a battery charger with you. Between my (2) 100 W headlights and the new EFI, I am up to about 82 amps draw--a standard 65A 308 unit just doesnt make it.--or you can just not drive at night------
     
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  13. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
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    Important Note:

    if you buy one--they come with a 1 yr warranty---

    buy the spark units and the wiring kit first.... do your installation with only those units and get your ECU at the last moment.

    My ECU was out of warranty 2 weeks after i got the car running!!!!!
     
  14. atlantaman

    atlantaman Formula 3

    Mar 31, 2002
    1,726
    Roswell, Georgia
    Full Name:
    Charles
    ZFF--
    I bought my TEC-3 unit for 2 reasons.. 1- they were one of the first doing this and 2- i also wanted the direct spark units to replace my distributers.

    on hind sight---

    Several sources have told me that the TEC-3 algorithm is not the best and MOTEC offers a better product. I am not familiar with MOTEC but i am beginning to look into them.

    Currently i am running a v-8 in my car whils i am continuing to build my v-12 motor. I figgured that setting up EFI on this V-8 would be a good learning tool so I did not mess up an unreplacable v-12 motor.

    I will very likely buy a set of (2) 3 coil spark units from Electromotice and hook them up to a Motec -800 unit for EFI control.

    PS--- just discovered this part---since you will be going from a mostly vacuum operated system to an electric one--GET A BIGGER ALTERNATOR-- or carry a battery charger with you. Between my (2) 100 W headlights and the new EFI, I am up to about 82 amps draw--a standard 65A 308 unit just doesnt make it.--or you can just not drive at night------
     
  15. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison F1 Rookie
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  16. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    I think motec is probably the best, also the most expensive. There was a time a few years ago when processors just couldn't keep up, motec has always had the most processing power, although it really isn't an issue any more. Electromotive came up with a clever way to do it with a cheaper processor, but again that is no longer an issue. I think Haltech is the most versatile, it works with any ignition or any type of trigger, so it will ready the stock crank triggers and fire the stock twin distributors, I think it is the only one that can do that if you're going for the stock look. I installed a haltech and decide to do direct fire, which it will also do. I've had it in the car about 2.5 years without any trouble. It was pretty straight forward to install, I would buy another one. The new E11 (I have an E6K, The E6M just replaced it) will run sequential injection and true direct fire on a 12 cylinder (my E6K, the E6M and electromotive are all waste spark, one coil fires 2 cylinders)
     
  17. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
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    Aug 10, 2002
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    What does Bob Norwood use? He is the guru of all things Ferrari crazy.
     
  18. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
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    Atlantaman,

    Before you dump the tec3 realize that the t3 uses a totally differnt algorihm source based on volumetric efficiency of the motor not lookup tables like others. My understanding is the t3 is different and based on a different pricipal. Motec and do everything meaning huge number of inputs making it way complicated. The Motec guy said it would take me 10 hours on a engine dyno to wire out my program after installation. Motec is not user friendly and cannot be tuned with your laptop by the seat of your assometer. How long did the T3 take to dial in? Did you do it on a dyno?
     
  19. Steve-Race Engine

    Feb 25, 2004
    65
    Oceanside, Ca.
    Full Name:
    Steve Demirjian
    The following site has info on electronic fuel injection in general and Accel's DFI unit specifically which will be informative. http://www.cruzinperformance.com/accel/

    Steve
     
  20. Wayne 962

    Wayne 962 Formula Junior

    Nov 27, 2003
    434
    Ha, that looks a lot like my book:

    http://www.101projects.com/911-Rebuild/index.htm

    Anyways, Motec is expensive, and TEC-3 does just about everything you would ever need for much less. Becareful whom you listen to - the people who recommend Motec are often shops who specialize in installations and the sale of the product. There is a lack of independent information out there.

    I have never heard of a TEC-3 unit failing, personally, although I'm sure you could blow one up by hooking it up incorrectly...

    -Wayne
     
  21. zff

    zff Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    145
    Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Ken
    Wait, let me get this straight. There's NO website, forum, or even a magazine that's focused on aftermarket engine management systems? I searched and couldn't find one, but it wouldn't have been the first time I couldn't find something online. I would imagine there are a lot of people out there doing this... especially in the import tuner crowd.

    Hmm.... there's gotta be a business opporutunity there.
     
  22. anotherguy

    anotherguy F1 Rookie

    Feb 22, 2004
    2,574
    I know that he has used Motec's extensively, including on all of the cars he has built and tuned for John Carmack, which are as extreme as anything I have ever seen done to such fine vehicles. I don't know if it is what he uses exclusively, but I believe he is one of the Dallas dealers for Motec.
     
  23. fivebob

    fivebob Karting

    Jan 31, 2004
    223
    Tauranga,New Zealand
    Full Name:
    Callum
    The Motec M800 is easy to tune, and can be tuned without a dyno provided you have the wideband option and a reasonable understanding of EMS tuning.

    It's a myth that they are complicated and difficult to tune, nothing could be further from the truth especially with the new windows based software. On a Normally Aspirated tuning is a lot simpler than the Turbo MR2 that I did as my first introduction to EMS installation, I purchased my M800 about 3 months after they were released and had it up and running easily with no issues. Bear in mind that this was my first EMS install and I started completely from scratch with no maps at all. It took me about 4 hours of drive and tune to get the basic map sorted out and another 5-6 hours of refinement to get to the point I was happy with it. The car has been running fine for the last 30,000kms, drivability is as good as stock if not better, it does 0-60mph in 4.95secs and has never been near a dyno.

    After I get the 308 on the road a M800 install will be the next the list of things to do, I can downgrade the MR2 to a M400 and not lose any features, and the M800 will be just the thing for the Ferrari. I Might even put the ADL Dash logger into the 308 :D

    Sorry but I have to disagree, the Motec can do far more that the TEC-3. The common argument I hear is that the Motec has more features than most people will ever need, but you'd be amazed just how many of the Motec's features can be used to good effect. It's not that the TEC-3 isn't a good unit, it is, but the Motec is an outstanding unit.

    That is my completely independent view and since the I did the Motec install I've have tried quite a few other EMS's , they may be as good as the Motec in some areas but overall they just don't stack up. I consider the M800 to represent excellent value for money, though I should note that in NZ I can buy one for about 1/2 what you would pay in the USA.

    Though however good the Motec is, unless you're tuning it yourself you'll notice little difference in the way most quality aftermarket EMS's feel from the drivers seat. If you're after plug and play, don't care about extracting the ultimate in performance from your engine, and will be getting someone else to do the tuning, then go with whatever brand your chosen tuner recommends. If you like to fiddle with these things yourself and want the ultimate in flexibility then buy a Motec.
     
  24. zff

    zff Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    145
    Hawaii
    Full Name:
    Ken
    Fivebob (or anyone else here), do you have any experience with the Motec M48? I would be curious to hear how it compares to the Electromotive TEC3.

    The M800's retail price ($4310) is over twice the price of a TEC3 ($1850) here in the US, but the M48 ($2678) is somewhat comparable. I'm sure the M800 is an outstanding unit, but I don't think it's fair to compare it to the TEC3.
     

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