Just read this article. What do you guys think? http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/print_item.asp?NewsID=188 March 7, 2007 Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage By Chris Demorro Staff Writer The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate green car is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer. Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius. The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right? You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Priuss EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs. However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldnt be writing this article. It gets much worse. Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the dead zone around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles. The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalists nightmare. The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside, said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper. All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesnt end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce nickel foam. From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce? Wait, I havent even got to the best part yet. When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Priuss arch nemesis. Through a study by CNW Marketing called Dust to Dust, the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid. The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it. So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot. One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.
I think this has been discussed before, but perhaps I'm confusing forums. Either way, it's an interesting article to read.
It has been discussed before, Mike. The drill is that if you live in the city and do most of your driving there, you will save without a doubt. If the vast majority of your driving is highway you will lose. My wife does most of her driving on the highway and gets 32mpg in the E320. We have documented this. A Prius will get her only 26mpg for the same driving. We're going to wait and observe.
They should really start offering the E270 CDI version for the American market as well. At least with diesel, there is still some drivability left to the car, not just some underpowered green mobile that not only gets poor gas mileage, but also looks terrible as well.
ehh who cares, let the green people think that they are doing stuff even if they are not stuff gets made, stuff pollutes while it gets made, stuff pollutes while its in use, I am getting really tired of this CO2 emissions if you do this save 3 kg of CO2... come on, I turn my lights off not to save CO2 but to save on the power bill
Heck, I used to get 30 MPH highway with the old '81 Alfa GTV-6. The 2L Spider gets even better -- but weighs a lot less than modern cars. So maybe the "greenest" car you can buy today would be an Elise. In British Racing Green, of course. Edit: WTFO? I just looked at the lotuscars web site, and the 2077 lb Elise claims 29MPH highway. On 1.8L? When my 2.5L Alfa V6 at 3200 lb curb got 30MPH? Okay, I can understand why an SUV that's bigger than my first apartment uses more fuel than my home furnace. But why would a lightweight car with a 1.8L four banger get worse mileage than a V6 got 25 years ago ... when gas cost half as much? What gives? (Oh, and the Exige S claims exactly the same mileage -- which I guess makes sense, as long as you stay off boost.) New and "improved"?
Yes, we have a dedicated Prius (and Prius driver) bashing thread... http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150246
Switch to methanol (not ethanol). It'll end up costing something like $1 a gallon. I think Ethanol is basically $3 a gallon.
I hope not. I've read as much as I could about hybrids and came to the conclusion that it's the kind of driving you do that dictates choice. My son who lives and works in the DC area is the perfect candidate for a hybrid. He does little real highway driving. Wife and I do almost no city driving. We could not average the 32mpg on the highway with a Prius that we can get with the E320. Nonetheless, we are monitoring the technology and when the time is right we could easily switch. BTW, my little Tracker roller skate is what we use for local shopping and short hops. It gets 30mpg no matter what. The other funny thing is that the 575M gets 16mpg which is better than my neighbor's pickup.
To get the blood moving, let's consider E-85 fuel in terms of mileage and emissions. There is nothing new about E-85 BTW. We had it in the mid-west in the late seventies when regular was $1.18/gal (expensive then). What I noticed back then was a drop in mileage causing me to use more fuel per trip. Nobody knew the consequences but, I found I was actually spending more per week than with ordinary regular. I'd suggest folks do a test for themselves with both regular and E-85 because every car/truck is different. 1. Limit yourself to no more than five over the speed limit for at least one tank full and calculate cost. 2. Do the same with E-85. 3. Compare that to what it's costing you now. The result could be instructive.
Have you tested the difference between the grades of gasoline in a car? I'd be curious to see if you got any noticable improvements.
Ethanol has a third less energy per volume compared to gasoline. It takes 33% more ethanol to go the same distance as gasoline. It doesn't make economical sense to use E100 unless it's 1/3 cheaper than gas (E85 is basically the same, % wise). Ethanol also weighs more than gasoline by the gallon so you're lugging around more weight on a full tank (i.e. 20 gallons of gas < 20 gallons of ethanol). I think it's something like 6.0 lbs per gallon of gas and 6.6 lbs per gallon of ethanol so 10% more. Ethanol weighs 10% more than gas and has 33% less energy than gas. However, you can get more power of out ethanol if you run a higher compression. 15:1 or thereabouts.
Thanks. I was waiting for that. There was a fellow on the news this morning that also said that the carcinogens in Gasoline would be simply traded for othere carcinogens in ethonol. Anyone else see that? BTW 15:1 is a little. rough. Wonder what Rifleman or Artvonne thinks about that?
15:1 is the optimal where it become most efficient and can actually get better gas mileage. It's not required to run at that level, though. Methanol is another option, but that only has 45% of the energy of gasoline per volume.
I might not have understood the article but if you think that the hybrid is only going to last 100,000 miles, you are kidding yourself. There are tons of Gen 1's out there with 130,000 and still going strong. And, if you think that the Hummer (which model) is going to last 300,000 miles, you are kidding yourself again. The only one I think could last 100,000 miles would be the H1. So, give it time, let them drive in piece and let the technology improve. With those people buying the first ones, Toyota wouldn't pour the money to improve on it.
I'd say the H1 would be the LEAST likely Hummer to rack up the miles. H2's and 3's shouldn't have any problem eclipsing 100k miles since they're built on well-tested platforms (in fact, many already have).
Sorry to disagree, but I have owned a Prius (the Ferrari of hybrids) for three years and 50,000. I averaged 50 mpg over that time, including local trips, work drives, and three 4,000 mile trips to Colorado. I have NEVER gotten less than 44 mpg on a tank. To get only 32 suggests something seriously wring with that particular car. Also, this topic was previously discussed and de-bunked at http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142955
