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Project-Scuderia

Discussion in '360/430' started by RBM, Nov 7, 2011.

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  1. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
    Full Name:
    RBM
    Yes, I had to laugh when I saw the nuts were on the inside on the rear, and I had to remove BOTH undertrays, because Ferrari didn't think to make a single access panel for an alignment. Yours is an excellent idea, and probably a good opportunity to install longer bolts for more shims.
     
  2. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
    Full Name:
    RBM
    #77 RBM, Mar 7, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I looked at the Ferrari 430 Challenge adjustable drop links for the Anti-Roll Bars. Including all the extra hardware, the price was well over $2000.00 for a complete set of four. Examining the stock drop links, I found all the fasteners to be standard M10 fine pitch (1.25); not common hardware but not impossible to source.

    With the Ferrari up on a 4-post lift and the suspension under static load, I measured the stud lengths to position the drop links as vertically as possible, and measured the thread depths in the ARBs and the receivers on the uprights to calculate the lenghts of the various bolts and spacers.

    Then using some smart design work, I came up with a single adjustable drop-link design using all off-the-shelf parts that would work at any corner of the car. The 4 stock drop links are all different; you cannot install one from any corner at any other corner. The rear drop-links are 20mm longer than the front drop-links (see photos below). For this first-generation design, I used the same rod end setup that Ferrari uses; a male rod end threaded into a female rod end, with a tightening nut.

    This first-generation design has a couple limitations:

    1) Dialing out the pre-load requires removal of one bolt through either the top or bottom rod end, and the adjustments are not infinite. The adjustments have to be in increments of 180 degrees of thread, or about 0.625mm of drop-link length. The Ferrari solution has the same limitation.

    2) The bolt heads and the spacers that position the drop-links both limit the spherical travel of the bearings in the rod ends. This could be an issue at the extreme ends of suspension travel (see photos below). I don't know whether the Ferrari drop-links have this issue.

    I am working on a second-generation design that will address both of these issues, with reduced weight and increased strength.

    In the mean time, I sourced a complete set of drop-links with hardware locally, for less than $800.00.

    It was a pure bolt-on upgrade that took about an hour. Both wheels have to be off the ground (suspension unloaded) in order to R&R the drop-links from either ARB. You must use a wrench to remove the stock drop-links, and some of the threaded studs can only be turned a sixth of a turn at a time. Multiply that by 20 threads and 4 studs, and that's a lot of wrenching. You can use a ratchet wrench (or an air wrench) to install the adjustable drop-links, so it literally takes seconds; another advantage of this design.

    The thru-bolts shown in the first four photos are not the bolts used in the install (shown in the last four photos).
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  3. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
    3,456
    Dublin, Ireland
    Full Name:
    Greg
    Fascinating and excellent work Bob, thanks for posting.

    It appears as though your new links are "standing off" the front anti-roll-bars to a greater extent than they were as stock. Was that a deliberate effort on your part or just down to the fittings you acquired?

    Are you concerned about longevity without the boots?

    Well done.
     
  4. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    I have been running the F430 Challenge monoball drop links ($$$) for almost 3 years. They are as good as new. Excellent quality bearings.

    Your approach is even better, because it fixes the geometry problem with the stock F430 Challenge and the stock Scuderia/F430 drop links.
     
  5. 430 scuderia

    430 scuderia Guest

    Jun 10, 2008
    813
    This is what you can CALL improvement..!

    Best
    Greg
     
  6. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
    Full Name:
    RBM
    Yes, the 'stand-off' with the spacers is to get the drop-links to be as near vertical as possible under static load. That addresses the geometry problem that F430GT mentioned above. The stock drop links are actually positioned the same, but it is difficult to tell because the bearing housing, boot, and wrench fitting mask the actual stand-off of the stud.

    The spherical bearing rod ends are self-lubricating bushings on stainless bearings, so they are pretty durable. I've used them on ARBs for 22 years, and never worn one out before.
     
  7. morengine

    morengine Rookie

    Oct 18, 2011
    1
    Hi.

    I am right now really considering getting myself a Modena =D. I had a recent drive in one, on some empty roads here in Portugal, but to be honest I was not that convinced by the car's handling. Even considering that it was the first time I drove an Fcar, it just didn't feel neither as stable or as adjustable as I'd like. Indeed i think that my current boxster S is a better car than the modena i drove.

    I know however, from reading several threads here in FerrariChat and also in Clubscuderia (I am very seriously considering buying a Modena =D), that these cars can be drastically improved just through some changes in alignment.

    Back to that drive in the modena. As it seems to be the norm with these cars, the modena to me felt, i would not say unstable, disconnected is perhaps a better word, at the rear on the way in to the corners, but worst than that, when i went to the throttle on the way out, it just didn't feel like the rear wanted to help the car describe the corner. it felt like it was always cornering only with its front tires and that if I tried to use power to make it rotate it would throw me out of the road very quickly indeed... On the plus side,excellent steering feel and an unpexctadely superb ride (i never thought that such an extreme sports car could deal with high speed bumps with that aplomb =O)

    My question is then:
    What do you think that could be done both with camber and toe in to change that feeling that the car is cornering only with the front axle? do you think that fitting the CS's rear anti-roll bar could fit some of that behaviour?

    Note: I like my cars to have an exploitable rear end, but not to be oversteery... (I hope I'm not sounding a complete moron right now =|)
    I drive my cars almost exclusively on the road, though not rarely i drive them very hard on the road, so i think i'm better to avoid radical alignments.

    Sorry for the very long post.
    Well, anyway, i would love to hear your opinions guys and congrats or the brilliant thread!

    cheers
     
  8. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
    Full Name:
    RBM
    #83 RBM, Mar 10, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  9. F430addict

    F430addict F1 Rookie

    Sep 17, 2010
    4,460
    This is insane!
    Keep going....
     
  10. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
    Full Name:
    RBM
    #85 RBM, Mar 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  11. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
    Full Name:
    RBM
    #86 RBM, Mar 16, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here is some of the wheel and braka data collected so far.

    Wheel-Brake Measurements
    ============================================
    Clearance from rotor face to stock wheel spokes = 67mm
    Inner diameter of stock wheels (smallest point) = 438mm (suitable for 380mm brake rotors)
    Inner diameter of Dymag wheels (smallest point) = 400mm (suitable for 350mm brake rotors)
    Front brake caliper piston diameters: 30mm (low), 34mm (mid), 38mm (high)
    Caliper mounting base radius on upright (front/rear): 4.569” (116mm) from hub center
    F and R Caliper mounting bolt spacing: 132mm center-on-center

    More data to follow.

    Interesting facts - The front and rear uprights are the same (FR=RL, FL=RR). So, the brake rotor-caliper combinations are interchangeable front to rear. E-brake calipers could be installed in the front, and rear-wheel steer could also be installed (to a much lesser degree than the front).
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  12. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    Only the 360 Modena, F430 have same uprights LF/RR and RF/LR.

    The Scuderia and 16M use unique front wheel carriers, they provide wider track (less understeer) and the mounting of the calipers sticks out 9mm more. They also use unique part#.

    The front rotors use different offset, so even in case of installing F430 uprights in the front, the rotors would be out of center.
     
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  13. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
    Full Name:
    RBM
    #88 RBM, Apr 9, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I had noticeable wear on the front brake pads, so I obtained a better set of track pads to replace them. Ferrari does not make it easy to get pads anywhere besides the dealer. Working with the Pagid distributor for North America, I was able to obtain enough data to verify the Scud uses the same size brake pads F&R as the F430 Challenge. The only compound that Pagid offers in the correct sizes is RS-19. Fortunately, I know from several years of racing on carbon-ceramic brakes, that RS-19 is a very good pad compound for that application.

    Full thickness on new pads is 10mm. My stock pads had worn down to 6-7mm. I noted some taper on the inside pad from each front caliper (6.0mm to 7.2mm). So, even though the piston sizes in the calipers are staggered, the pads still do not wear evenly. However, I have seen subtantially worse taper on PCCB pads.

    Front brake caliper piston diameters: 30mm (low), 34mm (mid), 38mm (high). The front calipers are 'trailing' calipers, so the rotor rotates low to high through the caliper. The smallest piston is on the 'leading edge' of the pad.

    Here are pictures of the pads. I did not have anything handy to include in the picture to show the scale of the pads. They are absolutely gigantic. The pad backing plate measures 189.6mm (7.46") x 97.2mm (3.83").

    Note the "PAGID 5600" stamping at the top of the backing plate on the stock pad (black), and the "RS19" stamping at the top of the Challenge pad (yellow).
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  14. F430addict

    F430addict F1 Rookie

    Sep 17, 2010
    4,460
    Wow! This is some handy info when it comes to changing the pads on my 430 Scud project car.
     
  15. VividRacing

    VividRacing F1 Rookie

    Aug 23, 2005
    2,986
    Gilbert, AZ
    Yeah we actually stock the pagids so if you need them we have them.

    RBM - Great posts good info here.
     
  16. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
    Full Name:
    RBM
    #91 RBM, Apr 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    While we were adjusting the rear camber, I discovered this appendage attached to the back of the transmission housing. It appears to be a crash attenuator, although the design is not as sophisticated as others I am familiar with, and the material is not the best choice for that application. I could not find a part number or name for it in the parts catalog.

    Out of curiosity, I pulled it off, tested it with a magnet, weighed it, and re-installed it. It is aluminum, and it weighs 0.820 kg (1.8 lbs).
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  17. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    I read that the 430 Challenge Pagids are now supplied bedded in and ready to go. True?
     
  18. RBM

    RBM Formula Junior

    Nov 22, 2009
    867
    Full Name:
    RBM
    They did not look bedded in already. Normally, Pagid includes bed-in instructions or a note saying it's not required. I did not find either in the box. I have scheduled time to bed-in on Friday, if needed.
     
  19. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    I believe they have only just started supplying them pre-bedded in.
    Performing the bedding in procedure on public roads in Australia would be problematic as we lose our license for 25kmh over the speed limit here...........and they seize the car for 90 days. Keep doing it and they crush the car. Hence pre-bedded pads are of interest to me.
     
  20. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    Yes, since 2010 the F430 Challenge pads are supplied pre-bedded (just the front ones).

    The pads shown by RBM are not the Challenge pads, they are Pagid Racing, but not the same as the Challenge pads. The RS19 and RS29 compounds work great with CCB rotors (I ran them for years in my GT3/GT3 RS PCCB). They need to be bedded-in and the process is tedious and long with CCB rotors.

    The Challenge pads (F430 and 458) use RS19 compound at the back, but the front end uses the harder RS15 compound for more bite and better balance. Personally, I prefer the RS19 in the front, as it reduces the excessive front brake bias the F430 Challenge pads have, despite of the Challenge front pads giving more stopping power.

    Pagid S600 on the stock street pads is the Pagid 4-2-1 compound, good for street use and sport driving, but not good for racetrack use, as they will kill the life of CCB rotors prematurely.
     
  21. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    #96 360C, Apr 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Must be an American spec part. My Australian spec car doesn't have that at all.
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  22. 360C

    360C F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Great information, thanks for posting. Just what I was looking for :)
     
  23. Integra

    Integra Karting

    Mar 24, 2010
    183
    Monaco
    Full Name:
    Federico
    My Eu Car doesn't have it either!!

    BTW I was missing the forum for almost one year and it's so nice to come back and find a thread like this!! Fortunately in US there are people like you and 430 GT who really enjoy and use your car.. i totally agree! Good luck with your project and now I go to order some RS19 for the trackdays season coming!! ;)
     
  24. F430addict

    F430addict F1 Rookie

    Sep 17, 2010
    4,460
    Mine should be euro spec. Doesnt have that too.
     
  25. F430GT

    F430GT Formula 3

    Sep 29, 2005
    1,300
    Marco Island, FL
    It is a crash structure to comply with the 5 mph bumper crash test here in U.S. I thought about removing it to save weight, but there is Zero (yes Zero) bumper protection on the rear of the Scuderia, so that Transmission cover helps in case of being rear ended by a diving Spec Miata.

    Also change the Brake Fluid to Endless RF650. I just switched to Endless recently after many years running Castrol SRF. The stuff is the best brake fluid I have used so far.
     

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