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Pull the Engine or Not for Valve Repair on 308

Discussion in '308/328' started by GeorgeDodson, May 29, 2008.

  1. GeorgeDodson

    GeorgeDodson Karting

    Feb 12, 2008
    193
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Full Name:
    George Dodson
    I missed an upshift and slipped a timing belt on my 81 308 GTSi. I have seen several opinions on the necessity of pulling the engine. It is the 5-8 bank (of course, thanks Murphy!). At least one poster said that you can pull the head in-place but might have to remove the acorn-nut studs which hold down the cam-cover. Has anyone actually done this? Is it a bigger PITA than pulling the engine? Thanks.

    Regards,
    George
     
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  3. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ
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    Dec 12, 2005
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    Tom Spiro
    I pulled the head on the front side of the engine... but once the plenum is out of the way there is plenty of room to work. I dont think you need to pull the engine out... You will have to take off the cam covers anyway, to get it out, the stud clearance will be tight. I dont think you need the specal wrench for a 2 valve for head nuts... my advice use a huge breaker bar to break the torque on the nuts the first time. ... I had to use a palet knife and rubber mallet to wiggle the head off the studs... took about half hour to get it loose. it goes together much eaiser and faster.
     
  4. pad

    pad Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2004
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    Paul Delatush
    Of course, if you start to think about changing hoses while you're at it, and setting the valve timing with a timing wheel, and cleaning the engine bay, and all those other "while I'm at it" projects that seem to creep up, then you might as well pull the engine and get everything done at once. It just easier that way.
     
  5. tomoshea

    tomoshea Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2003
    541
    Ireland
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    Tom O'Shea
    if the heads have never been off before there is a strong possibility that the removal of the head will be a "challanging" expereince with the engine out never mind in situe lift it out, realistically there is only 7-10 hours effort to remove a engine if you have never done it before and have a hoist but you will benefit from a second pair of hands and you will usually find more that needs attention once you remove the engine.

    Bite the bullet....

    For fear of asking an obvious question, I presume you are absolutely sure you have damaged a valve ..... compression/ leakdown etc?
     
  6. GeorgeDodson

    GeorgeDodson Karting

    Feb 12, 2008
    193
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Full Name:
    George Dodson
    Oh yes, I first looked at the ignition system, replacing a marginal coil and cleaning the dist. caps/rotors etc. I did a wet compression test and got ~170 psi on the 1-4 bank and ~0 on the 5-8 bank. I pulled the timing belt covers. The 1-4 belt was tight but the 5-8 belt had about 1/2" of play between the idler-tensioner and the drive cog. It had much more play than the 1-4. It looked like the belt was not properly tensioned before being locked down. The 5-8 belt showed no tooth damage or stretch after I removed it. I replaced it with a new belt and re-timed the cams, but still got no compression. I looked at the top of a piston with a boroscope and saw the deadly "happy smile" indent. So, "off with its head".

    I had originally been in the forum looking for a step-by-step guide to removing the engine. I found a lot of dead links and a lot of discussion, but no step -by-step guide.

    The car is a low mileage model and I had the belts done when I bought it in January.
     
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  8. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    Pull it, the job will be SOOOOO much easier.
     
  9. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    You'll need the dead weight of the block on the chain lift, to break the heads OFF!

    Concur you might as well pull it, it'll give you more room to degree the cams and all that and you'll want to remove sodium valves at this time.....
     
  10. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
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    chris morse
    Hi George,

    Welcome to F Chat.
    I just finished a major, with carb rebuild and hoses and was thinking a lot about how much easier it would have been to be doing the work on an engine stand. My 77 had about 30 k on the clock and i wasn't sure about the service history, so i am trying to get everything up to snuff.

    If i was doing this job again, i would pull the engine. There are so many things you can't really know about unless you check them and as Mike said, everything is so much easier, (well i am assuming it would have been easier):)

    The stories of heads seemingly welded to the block are legion. If just one bolt breaks, you are going to be glad you pulled it.

    I think one of the real positives is that you can feel a lot more confident about your work if you can really see what you are doing, make sure everything is really clean and sealed and tight.

    For sure, you will do a lot more stuff, "as long as i am in there" but it will be so much more straightforward.

    If you find a crack in the piston or any other ugly bit, you will be glad you pulled it.

    hth,
    chris
     
  11. Gianluca

    Gianluca Formula Junior

    May 6, 2003
    349
    Centreville, Virgini
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    Gianluca Chegai
    Definately pull the engine. Take loads of pictures as they will come in handy upon re-installation. Make the engine look pretty before you put it back!

    You will have a ton of fun and great pride.

    Gianluca
     
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  13. tomoshea

    tomoshea Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2003
    541
    Ireland
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    Tom O'Shea
    #10 tomoshea, Jun 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017

    I agree, a few before and after pictures of my own rebuild for consideration. Before 27 years of dirt and grime/ oil leaks after nice and clean
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  14. GeorgeDodson

    GeorgeDodson Karting

    Feb 12, 2008
    193
    Oak Ridge, TN
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    George Dodson
    OK I am convinced. I spend some of Sunday pulling and labeling the hoses and electrical connections that go from the engine to the body. I have a few questions. I presume that the exhaust headers come off in place. I'll bet that they are a real treat to get back on!. As to the motor mounts. It looks like they should stay on and should be disconnected by removing the 2 vertical bolts on what looks like a self centering clam-shell arrangement. I tried to remove the CV couplings with the 8mm hex bolts but gave up at 100 ft-lbs on the torque wrench. The nuts are locked by the shaft and don't rotate, so I bathed them in WD-40 and will do so again tomorrow before trying to remove them this weekend (rough week at work ahead).

    I ordered an engine-puller. It is a Torin Big-Red Folding 1-Ton Hoist. They are about $120 with a $102 shipping charge (not that I intend to have the engine out again, but this takes away the time pressure to return a rental. Besides, I love tools.

    Tom, the pictures are really beautiful! Although it doesn't appear to be "original" I'd thought of putting the red crinkle finish QV treatment on my GTSi because it looks so much nicer than the black. Well done.
     
  15. GeorgeDodson

    GeorgeDodson Karting

    Feb 12, 2008
    193
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Full Name:
    George Dodson
    Tom,
    What did you use on the Aluminum to get it so clean and shiny?
     
  16. tomoshea

    tomoshea Formula Junior

    Dec 29, 2003
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    Tom O'Shea
    #13 tomoshea, Jun 4, 2008
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2008
    On the advice of a concourse engine rebuilder in the UK this is what I did.

    I cleaned the block with basic engine degreaser, then used a basic soaply water solution. Left the parts to dry for a couple of days.

    I used a drill with a basic wire cleaner brush attached to go over the externals and clean any remaining marks.

    The magic ingredient is actually makes the engine look so good is Simoniz five spoke alloy wheel paint, about 8 euro a can. used it to cover all parts, available on ebay.No primer required and straight onto the aluminium. Good oil and petrol resistance.

    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SIMONIZ,-5-WHEEL-SILVER-SPRAY-PAINT,-500ML-AEROSOL,_W0QQitemZ230258377623QQcmdZViewItem?IMSfp=TL080603174a14327

    Regarding tips and tricks for pulling the engine best to get a number for someone on this board and speak to them easier than writing a manual on line.

    Be careful that the hpist you buy actually has sufficient reach to centre over the engine..... deceptively long reach required on a 308

    You could call me except I am in Ireland.....
     
  17. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    The headers are tricky to remove, I'd just unbolt them from the engine and leave them in there..

    To get the front one out otherwise you pull the RH wheel well liner and the gas tank......:)
     
  18. Tojo

    Tojo Formula Junior

    Apr 12, 2002
    397
    Sydney
    Full Name:
    Tim
    Pulled my engine out again 2 days ago. I'm getting good at it. lol. Here's a couple of tips: most of the front header nuts are easyish to get at from under the car. Depends if you still have the factory heat shielding around them or not, I think. Mine are ceramic coated, so it's no problem. Leave the front headers in the car till the engine lifts out. Otherwise with some fancy upsidedown manoevering they come out the side when the A/C alternator, water pipe etc. are removed. Taking the bell housing off gives more moving room on the way up, especially if you haven't done it before. When you unbolt the engine and start to lift it remove the rear engine mount assemblies. That will give you a bit more clearance as well. PROTECT THE REAR WINDSCREEN. Hope that helps.
     
  19. GeorgeDodson

    GeorgeDodson Karting

    Feb 12, 2008
    193
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Full Name:
    George Dodson
    Thanks for the tip on the motor mounts and the headers. I've given the CV coupler bolts a couple of WD-40 baths and hope to pull them this Sat. Then I'll pull the headers. I have yet to get some lifting straps but that shouldn't be difficult. The engine lift has not arrived yet. It should be here Sat. or Mon. It's funny, I was really dreading this, but now I am looking forward to it.

    Tom, if you are still reading, What paint did you use for the red crinkle-finish? Did you use a template for the Ferrari logo or use masking tape and a razor blade tool to trim it?
     
  20. pad

    pad Formula 3

    Sep 30, 2004
    1,409
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    Paul Delatush
    The trick to the raised logo is: Paint over everything with HiTemp wrinkle paint. Follow directions on can. After the paint is cured, take very fine Wet or Dry sandpaper on a block of wood and and wet sand the paint off the raised areas. Be sure to thoroughly wash the valve covers before you put them back on the engine - you don't want any sand in there.
     
  21. GeorgeDodson

    GeorgeDodson Karting

    Feb 12, 2008
    193
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Full Name:
    George Dodson
    The engine hoist arrived yesterday, some assembly required. It is the Torin Big Red 1 Ton hoist. The rest is going well. Half the exhaust manifold bolts are out along with the air pump. I've been cleaning parts. Gumout spray carb cleaner works really well. You can't believe how much sludge was in the intake manifold after the FI unit where the exhaust gas pipe plugs in, just as it turns upwards to the top of th engine. The rel problem is the CV joints. the long (~10cm) bolts with captured nuts are really frozen. I've bathed the nuts in WD 40 but they still won't budge. i may have spun the hex drive in one of them. I'll try an impact driver next, but the only one that I have is the old hammer driven style. Did anybody else have trouble with these bolts. They take an 8mm hex drive 9at least I think that it is 8mm).
     
  22. BigTex

    BigTex Seven Time F1 World Champ
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    Dec 6, 2002
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    Bubba
    Try PB BLaster, I think is the name of it, then a 4' cheater pipe, I don't recall the spec but they are torqued TIGHT!
     
  23. GeorgeDodson

    GeorgeDodson Karting

    Feb 12, 2008
    193
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Full Name:
    George Dodson
    The engine hoist arrived yesterday, some assembly required. It is the Torin Big Red 1 Ton hoist. The rest is going well. Half the exhaust manifold bolts are out along with the air pump. I've been cleaning parts. Gumout spray carb cleaner works really well. You can't believe how much sludge was in the intake manifold after the FI unit where the exhaust gas pipe plugs in, just as it turns upwards to the top of th engine. The rel problem is the CV joints. the long (~10cm) bolts with captured nuts are really frozen. I've bathed the nuts in WD 40 but they still won't budge. i may have spun the hex drive in one of them. I'll try an impact driver next, but the only one that I have is the old hammer driven style. Did anybody else have trouble with these bolts. They take an 8mm hex drive 9at least I think that it is 8mm).
     
  24. GeorgeDodson

    GeorgeDodson Karting

    Feb 12, 2008
    193
    Oak Ridge, TN
    Full Name:
    George Dodson
    I squirted the nuts with the PB Blaster several times before vacation and once after. I put 120 ft-lbs on it with my torque wrench but it didn't budge. I got a new Campbell Hausfeld impact wrench that is supposed to put out 600 Ft-lbs at 90 PSI. I had to use a universal impact joint to get over the frame members for the wheel (est. 20 degree tilt). I did a brief test and they still don't budge. I had to use a couple non-impact sockets as the 8mm hex drive (3/8") is chrome and I has to use a 12" non-impact, chrome extension (1/2") I do get some hose like drop from the compressor to the wrench with the 3/8" hose, but have the regulator wide open to 110 psi. My assumption is that they are ALL right handed nuts/bolts. Is that correct? Am I doing something dumb? Any suggestions?
     
  25. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    Dec 29, 2006
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    They are right hand thread and tighter than hell. You should be able to get a more or less straight shot at it if you have the wheels off and a long enough extension. MAC tools makes one for impact wrenches that is 1/2" at the gun and 3/8" at the socket end. This is what I always use for this. Crank up the air pressure as high as it goes and let-er rip.
     
  26. mike996

    mike996 F1 Veteran

    Jun 14, 2008
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    Mike 996
    You may have already tried this but a trick that works very well for loosening seized/frozen nuts/bolts is to first TIGHTEN them. They only need to move a tiny fraction of a turn to break loose. Then you can loosen them. It takes far less torque to break siezed/galled fasteners loose by tightening them than it does to break them loose by unscrewing them. I don't know the science involved but I was taught this MAAAANY years ago and it works most of the time though there are always exceptions.

    I have never found any of the penetrating products - PB, Liquid Wrench, WD 40, whatever - to actually work with a seized fastener. Heat - using the classic oxy-acetylene "flame wrench" will ALWAYS work but, of course depending on the location and nearby components, it is not always feasible.

    Good Luck!
     
  27. mk e

    mk e F1 World Champ

    Oct 31, 2003
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    As already noted you have to do it without the universal in there....at least that's the only way I could get mine loose. I used a 3 foot pipe on my rachet and still had to pull like h*ll on it.

    Also, don't use your torque wrentch as a breaker bar or you'll break it.
     
  28. Pizzaman Chris

    Pizzaman Chris F1 Rookie

    Mar 13, 2005
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