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Question on F1 pump operation

Discussion in '360/430' started by mjz, Oct 9, 2018.

  1. mjz

    mjz Karting

    Aug 3, 2007
    108
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Michael
    I recently had a problem putting my 430 into 'reverse' - it didn't work. It only did this once and since has been working normally. Car drives terrific. It has never done this before.

    So I am thinking maybe something is beginning to go bad and before it breaks I can do something about it.

    When I open the driver side door, the F1 pump comes on for about 5 seconds and then stops. This seems normal. What I notice, however, is if I close the door and then re-open it, the F1 pump still comes on for a full 5 seconds. I seem to recall it didn't do that before. Sometime the pump would just spin up for 1/2 a second or so and then shut off. Repeated opening and closing the door - the pump now runs for the full 5 seconds.

    Could this be a problem?

    Appreciate any insight.
     
  2. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    could be. one thing you can do easily now, is to start the engine, idle, and see how often the pump comes on. if it is under 60 seconds, then u got a problem

    normally it should be about 1-3 min
     
  3. mjz

    mjz Karting

    Aug 3, 2007
    108
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Thanks I'll give that a try. I hope I can hear the pump while the engine is running.
     
  4. BlacktopRacing

    BlacktopRacing Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 18, 2016
    671
    Full Name:
    Dale
    I think you're right about the times the pump would run. The longer initial one is priming the system after sitting for a while, and if it is "prompted" again before starting, it will be a shorter period. But my question is; is it always one or the other, or does the length of time it runs depend on the interval since it last ran?
     
  5. milanojess

    milanojess Karting

    Nov 26, 2007
    144
    sf bay area
    If the pump comes on after 2 3 shifts, the accumulator may be faulty as it does t hold capacity anymore. I think a good one would provide close to 10 shifts before pump runs again to pressurize accumulator.


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  6. BlacktopRacing

    BlacktopRacing Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 18, 2016
    671
    Full Name:
    Dale
    That sounds like something that would cause a warning light to come on. I think it would be interesting to have an LED within view to show when the pump is running, because you can't hear it when the car is running.
     
  7. 24000rpm

    24000rpm F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    you can open the rear decklid, on the RH side, put your ear there while engine is running

     
  8. Sled Driver

    Sled Driver Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 13, 2010
    364
    Stokesdale, NC
    Full Name:
    Emery
    Key on, engine off. Shift between 1st & neutral. Do this multiple times. The pump will cycle on after 3 to 4 shifts (NOT 10!!!)
    If it continually cycles on after 1 to 2 shifts then the accumulator is faulty.

    The pump doesn’t PRIME the system, It pressurize it. We’re not trying to get water out of a well.
     
  9. billy.gif

    billy.gif Karting

    Mar 9, 2017
    226
    Finland
    Hmm...

    If (when) I let my 360 F1 sit for a week or two the F1 pump will run like 12-13 seconds after I open the drivers door. I've timed this multiple times.

    Then I pull the "manual release" trunk latch under the dash (car still OFF - no ignition, nothing) and usually put few things into the trunk, this all takes maybe 15 sec me being quick and thin guy - easy to get in. Then I proceed to start the car: After "OK" message is displayed, when I put the gearbox onto "N" prior starting, the pump runs again - maybe 1 sec. It does this always, after 1 night sit or after 2 weeks.

    If I keep drivers door opened for any longer before going for the start, F1 pump will run longer time when I pull gearbox onto "N": Below is an example of door being open for something like 2-4min. In this case the pump runs like 4 sec. Is this within factory tolerances?



    The pump has never been replaced, car is 2001 and has 60k miles / 97k km on the odometer.

    EDIT:

    When I purchased the car at spring of 2017 and before I knew all this F1-system related stuff I actually let the driver door open for like +45min as I was showing the car to my friends. Then when I proceed to start the car and went for "N" the gearbox light lit for a brief sec and then shut. I've never seen that light after that occasion...
     
  10. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    2,106
    Uk
    If it was a pump problem it would be doing it on the forward gears as well, see how it goes and be sure you have enough F1 fluid in the tank so it does not draw in air
     
  11. mjz

    mjz Karting

    Aug 3, 2007
    108
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Michael
    O.k. - I performed the test you described above.

    Open the driver door and the F1 pump comes on for exactly 5 seconds then stops.
    I put the key in the ignition and 'energize' the system (pre-start). I switch from 1st gear (parked in 1st overnight) to Neutral and the
    F1 pump comes on for 2 seconds or so. I switch from neutral to reverse and the pump comes on again for a second or two. I switch to neutral
    from reverse - no sound. I switch again from reverse to neutral and I hear the pump come on for a second or two. In no case am I able to get 3 or 4 shifts without the pump engaging.

    Neutral to reverse is working just like before - but the engine is cold.

    I started the engine and performed the shifts again (without moving the car) and the same response as above was noted.

    Seems normal - except I do not get 3-4 shifts without the F1 pump running.

    Thoughts?
     
  12. mjz

    mjz Karting

    Aug 3, 2007
    108
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Where do I check the F1 fluid?
     
  13. Sled Driver

    Sled Driver Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 13, 2010
    364
    Stokesdale, NC
    Full Name:
    Emery
    Get in, close door, turn key to on position, but don’t start the engine.
    Shift between 1st & neutral (not reverse). Try it multiple times & see if the average is 3-4 shifts (each time you pull back on the paddle or paddles is considered one shift. Not neutral to 1st & back to neutral (that counts as 2)
     
  14. mjz

    mjz Karting

    Aug 3, 2007
    108
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Michael
    It would be interesting what others experience when they perform your test on their 430's.
    I only get one, maybe two shifts before the pump comes on for a few seconds.
    Do others get 3-4 shifts before their pump engages to recharge the accumulator with pressure?

    (maybe my clutch travel is greater since it's original and has some wear).
     
  15. Sled Driver

    Sled Driver Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    May 13, 2010
    364
    Stokesdale, NC
    Full Name:
    Emery
    I just replaced the accumulator & system pressure switch. Prior to that I could only get 1-2 (occasionally 3) shifts with the F1 light flickering during the shifts. I now consistently get 4 shifts on my 360 with no light.

    The original symptoms were a flickering F1 during shifts so earlier this year I had the pump & motor changed with system bleed due to age & mileage of my 360 (99 with 52k miles). I also have a Scuding Swiss F1 relay installed.


    How to do the test

    Configure the car like your going to drive it. Get in, close the doors. Make sure the trunk, & engine compartment are closed/latched.

    Turn key to “on”, but don’t start the engine.

    Depress the brake pedal. Shift, using the paddles, between 1st & neutral.

    Count how many shifts you can exicute before the pump cycles on.

    On my car the pump comes on after I select & while it’s shifting on the 4th shift
     
  16. F1.360.LOVER

    F1.360.LOVER Formula Junior

    Dec 12, 2009
    473
    Northern California
    Full Name:
    Nate
    I had the reverse issue with my 360 years ago. But, at the same time my F1 pump kept running after the car was off. Replaced the F1 relay and the reverse issue never came back.

    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
     
  17. milanojess

    milanojess Karting

    Nov 26, 2007
    144
    sf bay area
    So to clarify, I think I was getting like 7 shifts before pump ran again after replaced accumulator. Not 10, but something toward 10 than 1-2. It’s been a while...


    Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
     
  18. mike32

    mike32 Formula 3

    May 13, 2016
    2,106
    Uk
    The fluid tank is behind a panel on the right hand side of the engine bay- just in front of the rear lights, you need to remove the Allen screws ( be sure you have the correct size Allen key as the screw heads are soft and you don’t want to damage the recess) you will see the reservoir with a screw on cap. With the system cold and the drivers door open the system will charge up the pressure- using a joiners 6 foot flexible tape to check the level in the reservoir- put it in so the end of the tape touches the disc on the bottom, you need to see about 18 mms of fluid on the tape surface. It has to have a level when the system is charged so that no air is sucked into the system. When the system pressure goes down the fluid returns to the reservoir, hence it has to have space to take it.
     
  19. brookliner7

    brookliner7 Formula Junior

    May 5, 2018
    314
    San Antonio, TX
    Full Name:
    Hans

    I have a 360 and sometimes the pump will run again . I had the issue of not wanting to go into reverse a few times after it was warmed up.

    I fixed this easily by shifting from 1st gear to reverse, NOT from neutral to reverse, never had a problem since.

    When it's cold it'll shift neutral to reverse no problem, but after it's been warmed up, i shift from 1st to R and never had an issue since.
     
    F1.360.LOVER likes this.
  20. mjz

    mjz Karting

    Aug 3, 2007
    108
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Michael
     
  21. mjz

    mjz Karting

    Aug 3, 2007
    108
    Houston, Texas
    Full Name:
    Michael
    I have not had the problem since - and if it does happen again, I'll try shifting from 1st to reverse directly.

    I did take my 430 to a Ferrari certified mechanic to check my F1 system and he put the car on diagnostics and told me there is nothing reported.
    However ...

    He did note that my clutch internal seals of the F1 (which does the shifting) were out of spec. See image below. Values circled in red should not be above "10.0 cc/min". Factory calls for replacing the F1 system with anything over "10.0". He told me don't worry about it. He said as long as my F1 system is working flawlessly (and it is except for that one time reverse issue), that I could get years of additional performance. He also mentioned that chances are I have been driving with it this way for a long time. Each car has a unique "signature" - on some cars these values would cause gear slippage and yet on mine, no issues.
    He told me he would not want to touch my F1 system until there is a failure of one of the gears slipping (i.e. popping out of gear to neutral). Popping out of gear is the tell tale sign.

    Anyone have measurements of their F1 system as shown below?

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  22. MikeR397

    MikeR397 Formula 3

    May 9, 2010
    1,404
    SE Michigan
    My 2001 F1 360 with 40k miles (clutch/flywheel replaced at 28k miles) is getting temperamental going in reverse when warm, as in it pops of out reverse and into neutral and beeps for 3 seconds. It doesn't do this when cold starting and putting it in reverse if I'm backing out of the driveway, just when I'm trying to reverse into my garage getting home and the car is already warm. I don't have this issue in forward gears and everything else seems normal (pump primes for about 10 seconds when starting after ~1-2 weeks sitting), just that the car won't hold reverse for more than 1-2 seconds quite often. Any thoughts?
     
  23. MikeR397

    MikeR397 Formula 3

    May 9, 2010
    1,404
    SE Michigan
    Also, the pump ran for 16 seconds when putting the ignition "on" (not cracking engine). After this, pulling gear up to 1 and the pump started running again. Then to N, then to 1, then to N and the Pump ran again. So is the pump going bad or actuator?
     
  24. MikeR397

    MikeR397 Formula 3

    May 9, 2010
    1,404
    SE Michigan
    Very helpful, this sounds like my issue per above.

    Just really hope it's not the $10k or whatever f1 actuator!
     
  25. mello

    mello F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Jul 12, 2013
    2,934
    CA Bay Area
    Full Name:
    Steve
    The PIS setting is off. It should be readjusted when the gearbox is hot.
     

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