Rebuilding a Dinoplex AEC103A

Freeman, You wrote 'Fred's dad, Lloyd Winterburn created the very first commercially available CD ignition in early 1962.'

That's almost true. The truth is that Tung-Sol out of New Jersey actually made the first electronic CD ignition available to the public sometime in late 1961 or early 1962. The very first CDI used mechanical contact switching (Holley Magneto) and was built around 1906 for the Ford Model K as one of its two independent ignition systems. I can only imagine how short lived the contacts must have been on that old system, which is probably why the idea fell into obscurity until resurrected during WWII by Bosch for aircraft.
The Tung Sol (Motion Inc) CD was based on the thyratron tube like the Bosch system that was installed on the Wankel powered NSU Spider in 1964. The Tung Sol was a very simple but effective design. It had some real shortcomings but did prove how good a CDI could be. It was also extremely expensive which limited the number sold. My father's design was all solid-state, and also very simple, but a very different design in concept and operation. The final design was perfected in May of 62, but he was not able to file for a patent until the following year (1963) when he obtained clearance from the department of national defence to do so. Permission to file was required since he was in the RCAF. Most of his innovations were patented for DND, but this was an exception since he did it all on his own time, and so it was deemed to not have military value. The Hyland ignition first built in early 1963 was the first rendition of my father's design with many more to follow.
Interestingly, 3 or 4 days after my father filed for his patents, Theodor Sturm (German rocket scientist who worked with Wernher Von Braun)filed his patent on an all solid state Cdi. That unit became the Permatune which was first built sometime around 1968 or 69. It's also a very different design, slightly more complex and slightly less effective than my father's, but it worked and was installed on some Porsche 911s as standard equipment. I do not know if modern Permatunes are similar, but I very much doubt it based on comments I've read from the present owner. The older Permatunes were low powered but had very good range as far as battery voltage goes. They were limited by rpm and would not support a V8 at 5000rpm, but they did keep the voltage down which was good. I suspect the new ones are somewhat the opposite since they are recommending huge plug gaps.
Anyway, Lloyd Winterburn's design was the first commercially successful solid state CDi and the most popular design concept for a CDi used in the 1960s and 1970s and well into the 1980s. And no, he did not get rich from the idea. Fred

 

Fred,

Thank you for the clarification and correction. It forced me to go back to the Wikipedia page
( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_discharge_ignition ) and read it more thoroughly. it mentions "In 1971 Bosch bought the European patent rights (German, French, British) from Winterburn as their own CD ignition was based upon the Winterburn design."

Here is the part about your father for those interested:
It was the SCR, Silicon-controlled rectifier or thyristor invented in the late 1950s that replaced the troublesome thyratron, and paved the way for a reliable solid-state CD ignition. This was thanks to Bill Gutzwiller and his team at General Electric. The SCR was rugged with an indefinite lifetime, but very prone to unwanted trigger impulses which would turn the SCR 'on'. Unwanted trigger impulses in early attempts at using SCRs for CD ignitions were caused by electrical effects, but mainly 'points bounce'. Points bounce is a feature of a points-triggered system. In the standard system with points, distributor, ignition coil, ignition (Kettering system) points bounce prevents the coil from saturating fully as RPM increases resulting in a weak spark, thus limiting high speed potential. In a CD ignition, at least those early attempts, the points bounce created unwanted trigger pulses to the SCR (thyristor) that resulted in a series of weak, untimed sparks that caused extreme misfiring. There were two possible solutions to the problem. The first would be to develop another means of triggering the discharge of the capacitor to one discharge per power stroke by replacing the points with something else. This could be done magnetically or optically, but that would necessitate more electronics and an expensive distributor. The other option was to keep the points, as they were already in use and reliable, and find a way to overcome the 'points bounce' problem. This was accomplished in April 1962 by a Canadian, RCAF officer F.L. Winterburn working in his basement in Ottawa, Ontario.


F.L. Winterburn
The design used an inexpensive method that would only recognize the first opening of the points and ignore subsequent openings when the points bounced.

A company was formed in Ottawa in early 1963 called Hyland Electronics building CD ignitions using the Winterburn design. The discharge capacitor within the CD ignition had the ability to provide a powerful spark in excess of 4 times the spark power of the Kettering system using the same coil, with the exception that spark energy could be maintained at high rpm unlike the Kettering system. The Hyland unit consumed only four amperes at 5000rpm (8cyl) or 10,000rpm(4cyl). Dynamometer testing during 1963 and 1964 showed a minimum of 5% increase in horsepower with the system, with 10% the norm. One example, a Ford Falcon, had an increase in horsepower of 17%. Spark plug lifespan was increased to at least 50,000 miles and points lifespan was greatly extended from 8,000 miles to at least 60,000 miles. Points lifespan became a factor of rubbing block (cam follower) wear and the life cycle of the spring with some lasting almost 100,000 miles.

The Hyland unit was tolerant of varied points gaps. The system could be switched back to standard inductive discharge ignition by the swapping of two wires. The Hyland CD ignition was the first commercially produced solid-state CD ignition and retailed for $39.95 Canadian. The patents were applied for by Winterburn on September 23, 1963 (United States patent# 3,564,581). The design was leaked to the United States in the summer of 1963 when Hyland exposed the design to a US company in an effort to expand sales. Afterward, numerous companies started building their own throughout the 1960s and 1970s without licence. Some were direct copies of the Winterburn circuit. In 1971 Bosch bought the European patent rights (German, French, British) from Winterburn as their own CD ignition was based upon the Winterburn design.

I don't know how much of all that is fact or not as Wikipedia isn't always accurate.

Freeman

 

'I don't know how much of all that is fact or not as Wikipedia isn't always accurate.'

Well, history is written by the victors, or in this case, the losers that outlived the victors. There was only a little written on Wikipaedia when I updated the CD article a few years ago. I wanted to completely wipe it out and start over, but I knew I couldn't, so there is still a lot of junk there. However, some of that junk is mine. Because of my ignorance at the time, my contributions were not completely factual, but once something has been written in Wikipedia for a few years, there are the Wiki police that will resist change. You have to have facts with references that can be looked up to make a change that sticks. I made a few errors when I updated and expanded on the article years ago. The biggest error was in stating that the Bosch system was based on my father's design. I always assumed that it was since they worked so hard to track him down to buy the patent rights. In truth, it probably had more to do with keeping Marelli at bay since the AEC101 series was closer to my father's original design, at least on paper, or because Bosch just likes to patent things. The Bosch unit is not the same, at least the 8 pin version isn't. I could have included more detail that was factual to the Wiki article but it would not have contributed to the article in any meaningful way, and the purpose of my contribution was to set the record straight without having a rant. The internet is filled with misinformation regarding ignition systems. There were people at the time I updated the Wiki article that assumed motorcycles and small engines had Cdi before cars for instance. That would make sense, but it's not true. There is still a lot of misinformation on the internet regarding ignition systems and Cdi in particular, and some of it has been written recently by 'experts', so what can you trust? The last contribution I made to the Wiki article was to include the information regarding the Ford Model K CD ignition which was kindly forwarded to me by Robert Heyen of Nebraska (who owns a Model K). Yes, with Wikipedia you have to be careful. The author might have been me! Fred

 

Fred,

It's really an honor to have you here on Ferrari Chat and to have access to your experience, knowledge, passion and point of view on ignition systems. There's always more than one answer to the same question.

Freeman

 

Freeman,
I appreciate the kind words. But to put this in perspective, all I am doing is building the same mousetrap my father did with a few tweaks to make it more versatile and a little better at the same time without complicating the design. It's low tech, but good tech, and firmly entrenched in the 1960s. I am not an ignition guru by any means. The stuff they are doing today with ion sensing and other tricks is truly amazing, but there are some fundamentals that never change, which is why some of this old technology still works very well. Because of that, I've made this a hobby to keep me interested in life. There is no way I could possibly live long enough to understand all that is going on in this field.
By the way, when I tore the guts out of the Marelli AEC103B, it struck me just how complex they had made their design. My father would have been aghast. Some parts were neatly screwed to heat sinks and then the heat sinks were thermally isolated from the case by epoxy. Nuts. The circuit board was deformed when it was screwed to the case because no standoffs were used to keep the board level. This surely stressed the circuit board and the components attached to it. Poor build quality. Amazing what you can hide with potting! Fred

 

Fred,

I appreciate your modesty, honesty, clarity and being factual. I also appreciate that you are doing this. From the time I started corresponding with you I have also noticed you are not biased by your product. You are very good at evaluating and explaining the different products that are out there and which combinations work. As an example, you explained to me the various differences in coils and which coil(s) work the best for their intended use. Many classic car owners want to keep their machines fundamentally period correct but safe, reliable and fun to drive. I also embrace the idea of improvement and modification as long as it's done with good taste and judgement. You've created something that is badly needed and desired where there are few options, especially with a points ignition system. I also like that you make a 6V version. Eventually I'll try one on my 356's.

Freeman

 

2000 Mile trip Update:
Packed trunk to the gills, Marelli has minimal airflow, 101F ambient temps on HWY 101 and not a single sputter or hiccup on the trip all the way from Seattle to San Francisco (multiple downtown SF city drivings) then to Monterey to Napa/Sonoma and back to Seattle. I placed my hand on the case after 4+ hours of driving and it was barely warm when 92F ambient temperature.

The torture test on return - 13 hours solid driving Napa to Seattle

I am a fan!

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Scott,
The MSD option sounds like a cost effective retrofit. I would only caution that the high voltage capability of MSD ignitions means that insulation stresses on the low and high tension sides of the ignition system are going to be stressed much more. The AEC103 I tested briefly also put out a voltage much higher than I would like to see, but the MSD is most probably worse. Also, it will be stressing insulation and eroding high voltage contacts much more quickly due to the multi sparks at low rpm.
Unlike an inductive ignition, with CD ignition, the voltage can't be entirely controlled with the spark plug gap. The primary side of the coil will see whatever the discharge capacitor is charged to. On the secondary side, even if the spark gap is set to a reasonably small gap, the voltage overshoot that exists briefly before the gap is fully ionized is larger with CDI. The time that it exists is under 2 microseconds for most coils, but it still exists and will eventually cause harm. The only way to control it effectively is at the source. Keeping a relatively small plug gap will help, but it's not a complete cure.
The other problem with a high available voltage, is that it steepens the slope of the secondary voltage rise prior to the spark forming. That further stresses insulation because the faster voltage rise hammers the insulation harder than would a slower voltage rise. The other problem is that a high voltage that is building quickly, drives a current flow that prefers to travel in a straight line. If the rotor isn't in top condition, the energy that should have gone into a spark may find itself discharging to ground rather than through the rotor tip to the ignition wires and plugs.
I suppose the difference might be 30 thousand miles between changing ignition wires, rotor and cap with the msd, or well over 100 thousand miles with a CD system that has a more reasonable voltage output. Caps and wires usually give some warning of failure, but coils can fail without much warning. Heat and voltage are coil killers. While the MSD won't make the coil hot, it will be hard on the insulation. Some food for thought, Fred

 

Excellent advice, thank you

I keep the original cavis spark plug wires for shows and a minimal run time, but that is an admitted compromise

For all other times I'm using the MSD 8.5mm superconductor wires with MSD connectors and boots labelled with their white collar, spark plug numbers. I bought a bulk roll so have fabbed up a couple of these to fine tune the lengths and ditributor caps. I've found the distributor boot choices are either a bit too loose or slightly too tight for the Marelli dissy cap.

On Sunday I drove the final miles of a 2000 mile trip and found corrosion in two distributor connections. These were brand new prior to the Monterey trip.

Even a good ignition box needs a solid electrical path to do its job
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Scott, A little corrosion won't hurt anyway given the voltages involved. The biggest problem with a bad connection is that it will sometimes lead to arcing which eventually burns the connection creating another spark gap. The new spark gap will make it more likely for a short to occur at the distributor cap as it gets wider. Dielectric grease is the best way to keep corrosion at bay and keep the electrical connection in good shape. I use the inexpensive kind available at most automotive parts stores and it does the job well. Glad your Dino ignition is working well, Fred

 

Ref Adrian's design for "Installing the Bosch, Lumenition ignition system".
It's over 7 years now since I installed this flavour of ignition. Performance has been faultless. I had not used the Dino for a few months, but decided to take her on a long run. Starting cold and hot was without problem, firing on about the third starter motor turn. Original starter motor too, not a gear reduction. For those considering a conversion to electronic points less system, then this is certainly worth considering. Completely hidden in the original box, and no issues with taco either. If I had another Dino, I would do the same.
Kevin

 

Thanks,
I tried an old used Cavis OEM set I had but it didn't run well. Might have been that wire set though

 

Has anyone addressed this issue with the AEC-104 and will an MSD6AL2 fit inside the 3.8" ID case?

 

A friend has a boxer with the AEC104 that has become dodgy and he liked what I did with my Dino's AEC103A.
Can he (or I) do the same with the dimensions of the AEC104? I asked and he responded that the inside dimension measures 3.8" edge-to-edge

 

Anyone ever tried an MSD streetfire unit on a 12 cylinder? Will this work or is this not advisable due to the reduced output compared to the 6A(L)?
Because this unit fits more or less inside an empty the AEC104 box without having to remove the internals from the MSD unit. It would need some resurfacing from the top of the streetfire unit and than you can put the/a cover plate over it and mount the rev-limiter and resistor module on top of it.

 

Do yourself a favor and research the Winterburn CDI ignition. It is designed specifically for a points system and as a direct replacement for the Dinoplex. I took the plunge and volunteered to become the guinea pig for the Dino community. I am totally satisfied! My Dino starts on first click cold or hot, even if it's sat for weeks or I just stopped after a hard run. I'm not the expert here but I would be cautious in putting too much electrical energy into a system that wasn't designed for it, much like putting too sticky a tire on vintage suspension designed for skinny bias ply tires. Something eventually will fail in the chain. Winterburn will also install the system in a hollow Dinoplex. I also like that it is much simpler to problem solve a points system at the side of the road "just in case" (plus it retains the "Emergena" mode). I'm not buying or selling. I don't represent Winterburn. I just want others to know that there are other successful alternatives. The Winterburn CDI doesn't reinvent or modify the stock system. It is precision built with high quality by hand. It is also really affordable. I love it when things function well and exceed your expectations!

Freeman
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Yes, but the majority off the AEC104 ignition are originally triggered by a VR sensor and a few by points as far as I know. (not an original 206/246 dinoplex). Just to comment on the question about the boxer unit conversion.

 

freeman, any extra external wires need to be run or is it a plug and play with the original white plug connectors?
some systems (msd?) need an extra wire to the coil.

 

Freeman,
As always thanks for your support, and I'm really pleased that early unit of yours is doing what it is supposed to. I'd also like to thank Adrian LeHanne for that wonderful website dinoplex.org . That is a valuable resource.
Just so people know, the CD I build based on my late father's design is meant to be triggered by points, not a typical magnetic pickup or Hall effect pickup. It can be triggered by Pertronix and presumably any other trigger that mimics the points. It could also be triggered theoretically by any another electronic system that is meant to switch coil current in place of points using an external box to do so or built into the distributor such as a Mallory Unilite or 123 ignition distributor.
If you see a wiring diagram of my unit, you will notice that there are two wires going to the coil. When the switch is selected to 'CD' the brown wire to the coil is actually connected to ground. What this means, is that if you are interested in a retrofit of an AEC103 (of which I have done one unit successfully so far) the wiring will be exactly the way Marelli intended it to be since the brown wire is no longer used and the coil is simply grounded at the negative side. The only reason for the extra wire to the coil with the standard production model Winterburn unit is so that the 4 pole switch could connect the brown wire to the green points wire when the unit is switched to 'STD'. The system in theory could also be retrofitted to work with the weird 3 terminal coil on the early dinoplex101, but the coil would be grounded through the ignition switch. This method has been used in the past and is the method I use on my Volvo 1800S and was the method used on my father's early prototypes when all he had were 3 pole switches handy. Merry Christmas to all, Fred Winterburn www.capacitordischargeignition.com

 

Ed,

Adrian and Fred helped me with the wiring diagram for the Winterburn system wires(different colors) into the plug so it would plug into my Dino wiring loom/plug without modification. I bought extra correct male/female plugs if you need any.

Freeman