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Recomendation for a Stud Remover

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by Tig368, Feb 1, 2004.

  1. Tig368

    Tig368 Rookie

    Nov 23, 2003
    23
    Aarrrrrrrgh! I just stripped the threads on one of the cylinder head studs on my 308 engine!!!!

    I had purchased a complete set of Snap On metric stud removers. These have a collet for individual threads. I was sure that the studs were fine pitch (M12x1.25) as the collet threaded on with ease, but guess what. They're actually M12x1.00!!!!! I was wondering why the puller wasn't gripping the stud well. Oh well I thought, just need to purchase the right M12x1.00 collet. Guess what, snap on doesn't make that one so I guess I'm out of luck.

    Okay, what brand of stud remover does everyone use and where can I get one. I spent $250 on the snap on set for the very reason that I did not want to destroy the threads and now I ruined one collet and the stud. Not a good day!

    Any suggestions?

    Regards,
    Alan Ing
     
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  3. Sean F.

    Sean F. F1 Rookie

    Feb 4, 2003
    3,004
    Kansas
    Full Name:
    Sean F
    With the engine block it may be tough but I generally remove a stud by putting two nuts on the stud back to back, and "losening" the inside nut, which will tighten against the outside nut and then turn the stud out.

    This works pretty good with most studs but the engine block studs are usually in pretty good and it may not.
     
  4. jm3

    jm3 F1 Rookie

    Oct 3, 2002
    4,364
    United States
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    JM3
  5. Nick

    Nick Formula Junior
    Sponsor Professional Ferrari Technician

    Oct 31, 2003
    505
    Full Name:
    Nick Scianna
    #4 Nick, Feb 1, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Hi Alan, you may not be aware of this & it sounds like you are not, but the stud size on a 2 valve head is 11 mm X 1.00 thread not 12,the thread size which fits into the block itself is 14 mm, here is another method of removing studs from older 308 2 VALVE engines:

    Remove all corrosion around the stud. There is a slight space between the stud and the block, pick out all debris and loose pieces of corrosion. You should now have a place where penetrating oil can pool. Spray penetrating oil at the base of the stud, and let it sit over night. Use a 7/16 Snap On collet and stud remover. They don’t make an 11-millimeter collect and the 7/16 one will spin on perfectly. This will not destroy the thread if done properly; however all hardware should be replaced If you are doing a serious performance build up. Thread the collet all the way down on to the bottom of the threads, but not below.
    Tighten firmly the stud removal tool onto the stud. Use an impact wrench on the end of the tool and blast away. Most will spin right out. The others will take heating the block with a propane torch and reapplying penetrating oil. Let the air wrench pound on the stud remover for a while, like minutes, before reheating and trying again. There are about 3 studs per bank that will be difficult. The problem is excessive corrosion between two dissimilar metals. The longest any stud has taken is about 15 minutes, but it seems like forever. Don’t use a large wrench instead of an air gun because the tool will begin to spin on the stud threads. Clean and chase the threads in the head. You will not believe the amount of corrosion. A brief note on our custom 308 Ferrari cylinder head studs, they are
    100 percent Aerospace (not aircraft) quality studs and hardware specifically designed for the 2 valve 308. Tensile Strength excesses 190,000 psi. These were designed for use in the 4-liter engine program where improved head gasket sealing is must.12-point nuts, machined washers; the transition between the 14 and 11-millimeter stud diameters has a smooth radius. Can be Cryogenically treated similar to 4-liter engine program for even additional strength at a modest additional cost. ARP and other premium stud manufacturing jobber costs for a single set is studs varies from approximately $1,600 to 1,900 for 20 studs, washers, and nuts with long lead times. This pricing reflects larger production runs at substantial savings. Pricing on a set of head studs, washers & nuts is $899.00, which is much less than OEM.For more info on studs or even the 4-liter engine development program contact me. Nick Scianna www.nicksforzaferrari.com
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  6. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    10,707
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    The method Nick described certainly will work.

    I used a snap on universal stud remover, with 3 cams, and a large wrench to turn them out. This work is never easy.

    You should have asked and checked the size of the 11mmx1.0mm studs. Now, you have to replace it.
     
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  8. Tig368

    Tig368 Rookie

    Nov 23, 2003
    23
    Sorry for the late response. My computer had a few problems. Anyway, thanks everyone for your suggestions. Nick, thank you very much for the detailed description on how to remove the studs and information about the ones that you can provide. I'll definitely consider them after I remove the ones in my block.

    Yes, when I got back to the shop, I did find out that it was in fact a 11mm x 1.0mm stud. I would have gone with your suggestion to use a 7/16 x 20 collet, but I decided I'd try and make one for my own education so I took some scrap steel stock and made a collet blank on a lathe, bought some taps, and cut a keyway using our mill. Turned out better than I expected (better looking than the official snap on product) and seems to grip the stud well (I haven't used my impact wrench on it yet so we shall see if it works).

    Nick, my impact wrench produces 550 ft lbs (or is it lb ft?) of torque. Should I use the maximum setting or something a bit less. I haven't had much experience with these things and would hate to break a stud in the process.



    On a side note, I made the collet out of some scrap low carbon steel that I had. I'd like to make another using something a bit harder. Any recomendations? I've case hardened some stuff before, but its a pain to get access to my friends oven at the physics shop at the university.
     
  9. Tig368

    Tig368 Rookie

    Nov 23, 2003
    23
    First the good news. My home made collet for the snap on stud remover works great! With my propane torch and my impact wrench, the stud with the stripped threads came out!

    Now the bad news....... My home made collet in combination with my Ingersol Rand 2131 (550 ft lb) impact wrench worked too good and ripped the threaded portion of the next stud completely off. Luckily the unthreaded portion of the stud remains, but I'm really worried that I won't be able to get it out. I'm going to try a different stud remover and bring the block to my friends shop. He's got an Acetylene torch with a rosebud tip. I'm hoping the extra heat from the torch will allow me to get that stupid thing out. Anyone care to comment on my plans?

    Thats it for me, I've learned my lesson, if it aint broke don't fix it. I've decided to leave the rest of the studs in the block and pray that the broken one will come out.

    Alan
     
  10. Tig368

    Tig368 Rookie

    Nov 23, 2003
    23
    Hi all,

    After a lot of effort, I was finally able to remove the broken stud on my 308 block. As I mentioned in my last post, I used a propane torch and my snap on stud remover (with custom collet) with an impact wrench and the top of the stud broke off. With no threads to grab on to, I went down to sears, took one look at their stud remover and decided to buy a set of lisle (I think thats how you spell it) Socket style nut and stud removers. These removers are a bit different than the ones sold under the Craftsman name that are for removing nuts and bolts. After hammering the socket on to the stud (It took forever because I think the studs are hardened) I took the whole block to my friends shop who has an oxy-acetylene torch. Wow, I didn't realize how much more heat this torch with a rosebud tip can provide. The block heated up much more quickly and I again tried my impact wrench. Nothing. The thing wouldn't budge. I heated it up again and melted some wax on the stud. Again nothing. This time I used a breaker bar, but the stud began to bend so I stopped. I almost gave up, but I figured I had nothing to lose, so I kept heating the block and going at it with the impact wrench and finally after the 7th try, the stud began to move. What a relief! It finally came out. I firmly believe that I wouldn't have been able to remove the stud without the use of that torch. All the penetrating oil and wax that I used only made it down the stud about an inch. Thats it for me, I messed up every stud I tried to remove, so I'll quit before I do any more damage.

    I may have been particularly unlucky, but I just thought I'd recommend to everyone that if they want to remove thier studs, use an oxy-acetylene torch with a rosebud tip rather than a propane one. The aluminum block dissapates heat much to fast for the propane torch to be effective (in my case anyway). Better to make sure you have enough heat than to risk breaking the stud like I did.


    Alan
     
  11. henryk

    henryk Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    479
    Door County, WI
    I had a recent experience, in that a head stud was broken, on my TR. I just slipped a nut over the remaining portion of the stud, and welded it to the stud. I then used a socket and was able to remove the stud. VERY easy!!!!
     
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  13. ferrarifixer

    ferrarifixer F1 Veteran
    BANNED

    Jul 22, 2003
    8,520
    Melbourne
    Full Name:
    Phil Hughes
    Going back to the beginning for a moment........what on earth were you doing that caused the thread to strip in the first place??

    When assembling the head onto the block, a well oiled thread and nut will not even get close to stripping.....was it rusty, damaged, crossed.

    Did you confuse your Nm and Lb/ft?
     
  14. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    10,707
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    He was trying to remove the stud with the expensive Snap On stud remover collet, except that the collet was 11mm x 1.25mm pitch (wrong pitch).

    My original suggestion was "keep the studs, clean up the deck, and use K&W copper spray on the head gasket"

    A kluge perhaps, but ... it works and only one person would know.
     
  15. Tig368

    Tig368 Rookie

    Nov 23, 2003
    23
    Yes, I had convinced myself that to do a top notch engine rebuild I should remove the cylinder head studs and clean out the threads and use moly grease.

    I made a mess of the original stud by not actually measuring the threads. I just figured that since I had a full set of snap on metric collets, that I had the proper one as the collet seemed to thread on nicely. It didn't occur to me that the Ferrari uses an unusual thread. The collet itself ruined the threads on the first stud as it was torqued down to 120 ft lbs and in the process cross threaded the thing (also ruined my collet). I ended up using a die to reform the threads and then made a custom 11mm x 1.0mm collet to work in the snap on tool housing. The collet worked well with my impact wrench and a propane torch on the cross threaded stud so I figured that the rest would be just as easy and ended up ripping the top off the stud.

    Anyway, now that I've killed two studs, I've decided to follow Yelcab's advice and leave the rest alone. By the way, is that copper spray stuff better than the Gaskacinch stuff that Norwood recomends?

    Its a huge relief that I was able to remove the broken stud. I was sure my impact wrench was going to break the Lisle nut and stud remover.

    Well lets see what else can I break on this motor.
     
  16. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    1,973
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    How do you know you have not warped the block using a very high temperature torch on it - one that puts heat in faster than it can dissipate in aluminum?
     
  17. Tig368

    Tig368 Rookie

    Nov 23, 2003
    23
    Hi Lawrence,

    Frankly, I don't know yet, but I will be checking shortly. I already checked the deck with a machinist straight edge and it looks good so far. I have not yet checked the main bearing saddles yet for any misalignment, but will be doing that shortly when I have the block sent out for cleaning.

    I basically followed the advice I received from Mr. James Patterson over the phone at Norwood Autocraft. He was very helpful and basically said that when they remove the studs, they pull the liners out of the block and get at the studs through the block from the inside with an oxy-acetylene torch and a rosebud tip. He didn't seem to be too concerned that heating the block would cause any distortion problems. While a large amount of heat can distort metal, I figured that he has been doing this enough with 308 engine blocks to recommend that method to me without damaging the block.

    As I mentioned earlier, I tried to play it safe anyway and used a propane torch, but in my case, I could not get enough heat into the block which caused all kinds of grief for me.

    After I broke the threads off of the stud, I really didn't have much choice but to heat the darn thing and remove it. Drilling the stud out would have been extremely tough as the stud is hardened and goes very deep in to the block. I might have considered an EDM machine, but there a bit hard to find in Hawaii.

    Anyway, I definitely appreciate your concerns about warpage in the block and hopefully (cross my fingers) everything will check out okay.

    Alan
     
  18. Lawrence Coppari

    Lawrence Coppari Formula 3

    Apr 29, 2002
    1,973
    Kingsport, TN
    Full Name:
    Lawrence A. Coppari
    Alan,

    Glad you got the stud out. Good luck with your project.

    Lawrence
     
  19. Smiles

    Smiles Moderator
    Moderator Owner

    Nov 20, 2003
    14,911
    Pittsburgh, PA
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    Matt F
    That's the way to do it on damaged studs!
     
  20. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    10,707
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    Not when the stud has cold-welded itself into the block. It will just break below the surface.
     
  21. wda24729

    wda24729 Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 22, 2014
    999
    Devon, UK
    Full Name:
    Graham
    Thread resurrection!

    Im now in the same situation. Whilst torquing my heads one of the nuts decided to strip the thread just at the point of full tightening.

    Ive tried only the propane heat and stud puller / impact gun but I don't think mine is powerful enough and reading this, it looks like oxy-acetylene and a more powerful impact wrench is the way to go.

    Only slightly panicking at the moment!
     

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