Recommendations about Nick's Forza Ferrari "hot rods"?

You'll have a VERY fun little go-kart rocket ship, and an incredible piece of engineering, but you likely won't realize any premium and may even need to discount from stock when/if you sell. The more collectible and valuable 308s become, the more collectors prize originality. And speaking of originality, you will face concours points deductions if you mod the engine in any visible way. On the subject of THAT, Nicks Forza offers many different upgrade parts and levels of complete builds. Do a tasteful "stealth" build, and you may do well on re-selling an original-looking car with improved power. Build an 800hp weapon, and you'll need to find a very specific buyer type, and insurance will be difficult if you fess up to the non-OEM mods.

For my part, bought an electromotive ignition from Nick, and it's been fantastic. User smg2 here is Nick's engine builder and may be a good source to speak to. Also a few users here have done 3.4L upgrade builds independently or through NFF and then sold their cars, so you can ask them how the values reflected from performance upgrades. Try reaching out to Ferraripilot or matt_in_ca. Matt did a beast build and then put it up for sale, dunno if it ever sold...

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/ad-archives/518498-modernized-classic-503hp-1985-ferrari-308gtsi-qv-nff-%24145k.html

 

As many on here will tell you 308-328's aren't fast cars,,in my opinion though they are more than fast enough to drive legally on public roads,,
They are beautiful pieces of art which are pleasurable to drive,and by pleasurable l don't mean in the sense of the most comfortable/fastest car,but more in the sense that after driving one you always get a sense of pleasure,,

To answer your question these cars will always demand the highest value in their respective original condition,,whilst I don't have any personal experience with Nick's various parts, l can only say from what I have read they are very impressive and will make the car faster,
however I think by the time you factor in buying a car and modifying the engine/suspension/brakes to make it as fast as a 360,you could have bought yourself close enough to two 360's..

The point of my post is in no way a disrespect to those that have modified their own cars,because funny enough for quite a while after buying my 328 I wanted to install the
928 Motorsports supercharger kit that were available a while back but I guess after a while you get used to the power the car has and live to appreciate it,if l was a 'track' guy then maybe l would have modified it,but time has stopped me from ever tracking my car so l just enjoy it for what it is..

 

I don't have one of Nick's cars, nor have I ever driven one. I also can't speak to resale. I do however have a 3.5L engine upgrade with upgraded suspension, brakes, flywheel, ignition, etc., etc.
The driving experience isn't comparable to a stock car. They are MUCH faster, have MUCH more torque, better sound, etc. It pulls like a 360... Honestly. Well, up until about 6000rpm.
My opinion is that these hot-rod 308's are for people who want to drive a fast 308. That's about it. For less money, you could get a 430 and smoke the crap out of probably most any hot-rod 308 with better cornering, better, ac, better ride. But it won't be a 308. If you gotta have it (like I did), spend the extra money and get one. It is a straight up blast.
Can you get a newer, faster, etc. Ferrari for less money? Yes. but if you want a fast 308, and have to have one, they are wonderful. Think Singer 911 but better looking!
PM me if you want more details/commentary.
m.

 

I have owned my 85 euro QV since the early '90's and I was getting bored with it's performance. So I took it to Norwood's for the full engine rebuild and turbo treatment. It is like a new car to me now and is exciting to drive with the classic 308 styling. Once you have driven a 500 rwhp 308 you can never go back. I probably would have sold it if I had not had the mod's done.
Is it worth more than a non modded car- probably not. I kept all the original hardware to put it back to original if I or a future owner wants to do so.
Is it a lot of fun to drive? Hell yes!

 

As the guy behind the scenes wielding both wrench and slide rule it's worth pointing out how we go about a project. The entire vehicle needs to be inspected and thoroughly gone over, it's amazing what is hidden away after 30+ yrs. The reason for this is that when we increase the power output of the engine it places a greater demand on the chassis and vehicle systems. If those things are not addressed one is left with an unbalanced build and a chassis not fully capable of supporting the power safely.

I abhor modifications that do not look right or are clunky and seemingly tacked on. I strive to have the finished build to look clean and beautiful. The downside to that is cost, it simply costs more to have custom mfg parts that are designed to integrate into the Pininfarina and Ferrari design and not look out of place, oh and meet my expectations for engineering and performance.

I can not speak directly to re-sale value, but I don't think an owner after having us design and build a 308/328 for them would sell short as these builds are truly bespoke to the client. In reality the only limitation is how much one is willing to spend.

The desire to update the 308/328 to modern standards is fairly common, we get asked that fairly frequently by owners who already own 458's 488's etc.. they simply love the 308 design but want it to perform as good as it looks.

So in short, we re-engineer the entire chassis to handle to the new engine. Suspension, cooling, electrical, fuel system, brakes and exhaust. At that point many elect to go thru the interior and paint/body. Essentially a restored 308 with more presence and poise then stock.

We do minor upgrades as well, though scheduling and availability of time to do them is less available as the above mentioned builds take precedence.

My philosophy is this, if I feel it will detract or be negative or meh (neutral) in any way then I simply will not do it. I hold high standards for design and engineering and I can be a real PITA to please on that front. I would like to think that makes these bespoke builds hold a higher value, though I know I have little to no control over such things. However myself and Nick treat each build as our own vehicle.

Hope that inside look helps.

 

I've known Nick for at least 15 years and bought a lot of parts from him. He is 100% honest and cool as heck!!! I would comfortably recommend anything that Nick worked on or built. I've also visited his locations in Washington, really awesome work and like I said he is such a great person.

 

My car has a Forza XDI system, and I've been happy with it. I hope that in the future, my funds allow me to replace the balancer and timing belt components with Forza components as well. Perhaps this will affect resale, perhaps not. It won't matter to me.

I doubt one will get their money out of a $80K full Forza conversion upon resale, unless they find that one particular buyer. But not everyone cares about Concours standards.

 

My 1984 308QV has been upgraded with better brakes and suspension from back in my track days, and then later with a programmable ignition system from Nick, and then SMG2 intstalled one of his first supercharger setups on it. I've never regretted it. It absolutely woke up the car. It's "just" 350hp, but that also let me keep the original injection system and clutch and the car is still very easy to maintain. A non-Ferrari person looking at the engine compartment can't immediately tell it's not stock. But a 308 person taking a ride in it sure knows!

 

Someone earlier mentioned the 928 supercharger. , I was also seriously considering the 928 supercharger kit for my '89 328. In fact, I was about to pull the trigger one year when it turned out that the IRS needed my money more that the supercharger folks. The reason I was interested was the ability of the kit to be installed with no modifications to OEM parts and the ability to remove it and put the engine back totally stock.

As also noted, by today's standards, these cars are not quick though they can still manage a top speed that is higher than most cars - many of which are factory-governed to a speed in the 140 range or less. Of course, you basically have no place in most countries where you can actually PROVE that, without losing your license and maybe even going to jail.

I think a 350 HP 328 would be a nice balance of performance without needing a host of other mods. Generally, cars can handle a 30% increase in power over stock without any changes to other components. The 928 supercharger can easily provide that at a very low (by Ferrari parts standards) price - it was around $6000 when I was planning to buy it.

As noted, any modifications, regardless how good, will reduce the value of the car and, perhaps more importantly, reduce the number of people interested. Even if someone wants the same mods, most people would prefer to do it/have it done themselves rather than "trust" a previous owner's work.

OTOH, in a case where the work has been done by a known, excellent shop, like Nick, I don't think "trusting" the work would be an issue. But you would still have the "modified car" which is not as "valuable" on the market.

 

this is a fantastic post... too many here are trying to equate pwr to weight with modern performance. even a signer will get spanked by a mundane newer 911 or boxster on the track

 

It's all about fun factor. My 3.4 308 looked stock but was fantastic fun to drive. Don't expect anything out of it in terms of resale value. A very fast 308 pushes buttons modern cars simply don't. It's the same reason vintage 911s are rodded.

 

The obvious conclusion is one should try to buy a car that has already been modified, vs the cost of having the work done to an original car.

 

I wanted to do ITB's, then the 928 S.C., then Nick's S.C. but never got around to any of them. Now the plan is EFI, big bump in compression ratio and cams. A lot less bang for your buck (and nowhere near 350hp) but I really want to get rid of the Bosch CIS more than anything.

 

If you go that route, contact matt from that link in my second post. I don't know that he ever sold his, and might work a deal for you.

 

I would think a little differently then some posts on here. I think you could get more resale than the average 308 pending the condition of the rest of the car. You do make a significant investment in the motor - you may not get the full investment back but its worth something. I also think it would take longer to find that "right buyer". It's not something you would want to roll across the auction block at barrett jackson and roll the dice.

I am only a newbie customer of NFF parts. I have been drooling on their website for years. I have met and had conversations with Nick and SMG at concorso a couple of years ago. The level of thought and quality they put into their work is at the top. Scott's (SMG) comments above confirm that. They love these cars and seem to know the limits of what's possible. They will be frank on what works and doesn't. They are not cheap. That is because they go to the nth degree on development (there is a thread on here about the tooth pitch development measurement standards from their upgraded cam belt kit that demonstrates their OCD)

 

I am definitely in the retro/keep it stock school of 308 ownership so I think of old hydraulic/mechanically controlled CIS as one of the cool retro features of the car. To each his own of course. I love that it is a reliable set-and-forget system that is still as mechanical as carburetors. If mods are not about making extra power, I think CIS is great.

 

I think it's cool and was great and pretty reliable but a lot more can be done tuning-wise with EFI. That kind of additional tuning will be needed, I'm sure, if changing cams etc. I do want a bit more power and to do away with the restrictive air flow plate and sometimes problematic fuel accumulator and auxiliary air valve.

At the end of the day the CIS was a compromise that reduced hp of the original carb. cars and got rid of a lot of the nice intake sound. Had to be done for emissions reasons but it has no place in my heart like the carbs.

 

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/cto/d/1985-ferrari-308-gtsi-qv-nff/6283282124.html

Why not contact this guy and ask about his experiences? Doesn't look like he drove it much.

Also, it's been for sale forever, so my guess is he's asking way too much and/or there's not much demand for highly modified cars at premium prices. May be an opportunity to swoop and get this one for a better price.

It works in the Porsche world (backdated aircooled 911s) but with Ferrraris, not so much.

 

FWIW-I spoke to Bob Norwood about this in the past. If you have a stock engine setup you probably want see much improvement going from CIS to programmable EFI.

 

On the CIS to EFI change only I've dyno tested it's been an avg of ~30HP. Not a huge jump in power but the big difference is throttle response and emissions. CIS is great for a basic daily driver or low to mid range power engine that doesn't see big delta V changes in RPM. It makes sense in the German sedans and econo boxes of the day. To me it was a stop gap between carbs and EFI due to emission regulation changes. An EFI conversion gives back the snap of acceleration and response that the early carb engines have.

 

I've got the low compression ratio pistons (8.8:1, I think) and the original cams which I understand are kind of mild specifically for the CIS. I would like to go to 10:1 compression and see if higher performance cams (not "race cams") are available from NFF etc. So... it would not just be EFI. Not sure what kind of gain I would see but I'm sure I would feel a noticeable difference.

 

30hp is not that bad. You probably get a bit better torque all over the place, and just a better feel like getting your flywheel lightened but without the negative effects of flywheel lightening. Granted, would not be cheap for those 30 hp but now you've also got a great starting point for further modifications down the road, if you so desire. Throw in the reduced emissions, or the ability to reduce them once a year ;-) etc. There's a small amount of weight reduction getting rid of the CIS and opening a bit more working space with it removed, also.

 

Been reading this thread, and many others, and considering NFF EFI kit. Any one have experience in using Nick's EFI kit (claims maybe 20-30 hp gain) and also using a more aggressive cam? I understand the cam can be re-grinded. Is changing the cams something that can be done while keeping the engine in the car? Also what would be a guesstimate of total HP gain from Nick's EFI kit plus some more aggressive cams?

This would be for a stock 2v Mondial engine (basically a 2V 308).