News

Red Bull F1

Discussion in 'F1' started by NEP, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    Mateschitz famously said he would stop if he couldn't get engines capable to challenge for the title.
     
  2. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles

    Well, we don't know what the future holds for F1, and we only speak about our own vision, depending if we like e-power or not, if we are nostalgic of F1 as it was 20 years ago, etc ... Rules are periodically rewritten, so we don't know what's 20 years ahead.
    F1 may well stay hybrid with energy recovery as now, and keep the ICE, but using environment friendly synthetic fuel, bio-fuel, or hydrogen fuel, who knows?
    Or, we may end with a merger between FE and F1, where larger capacity batteries would allow higher motor power output, etc ... and car performances surpassing what we have now.
    Personally I keep an open mind.
     
  3. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 10, 2007
    16,075
    BaWü
    https://scuderiafans.com/ross-brawn-formula-1-go-electric-ten-years/

    Agree'd with the idea of potential merger or sych of F1 and FE. The future holds many possibilities for racing but not in the current form.
     
    william likes this.
  4. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    #304 william, Aug 16, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2019
    Very interesting piece from someone who knows F1 from Inside.
    I think some people could do worst than read Ross Brawn article, and take notice of it.

    Major manufacturers like Renault (now Nissan), BMW or Jaguar are already in FE.
    Also, Audi and Porsche have left WEC for FE, and Mercedes will have a team there too next year.
    To me, the constructors' interest is proof that FE will be an interesting championship before long.
    I see FE becoming some sort of F2 in future, a springboard and feeder series for the next fully electric F1 in 10 years time.
     
  5. Flavio_C

    Flavio_C Formula Junior

    Sep 7, 2012
    930
    If Honda Motorsport was based in Europe, there could be a case to sell off the F1 Program to someone else.
     
    Bas Jaski likes this.
  6. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    29,137
    Manchester
    Full Name:
    Bas
    Do you understand politics at all?
     
  7. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    29,137
    Manchester
    Full Name:
    Bas
    Your dream of FE and F1 merger is totally unrealistic. Can't be bothered getting into this again with you but batteries have zero chance at coming anywhere NEAR ICE engines. Even with enormous capacity a 300km race would take 5+ hours.

    With car industry in a potential recession, you can be rest assured that F1 (engine) programs are first to go. F1 needs to prepare for this also. No manufacturer makes money selling the current engines. To make money selling them the price needs to be upped by an enormous amount. Teams can barely afford them at current prices. Let alone inflated.

    F1 needs to think very hard what they'll do next engine wise.
     
    bmwracer and stavura like this.
  8. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    #308 william, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
    Battery autonomy is not a problem, but the organisers would have to use their imagination, instead of being fixated on the past..
    It's called "lateral thinking" and taught in business schools, but not everyone is capable of it.
    Liberty could easily change the GP format to take care of battery duration.
    Think of 2 or 3 x 100km races (instead of one of 300km) with time or placing added to determine the winner.
    I am sure the public would prefer to Watch 3 sprint races during the weekend than a long one where the result is predictable after the first lap.
    Imagine the crowd being treated with several starts and finishes, rather than watching a long boring race.
    That could also make the artificial mandatory tyre change something of the past.
     
  9. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles

    What do you mean by that ?
     
  10. Ferrari 308 GTB

    Ferrari 308 GTB F1 Veteran

    Feb 21, 2015
    5,373
    Let's be real here ...FEeeeeuuuu is total crap unless you happen to be getting paid to be involved in it!

    I'm amazed its survived soooo long .

    Load of rubbish .:mad:
     
    stavura and 375+ like this.
  11. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

    Nov 26, 2003
    5,684
    Actually, battery autonomy is a big problem, no matter how much lateral thinking you try. If it was so easy, it couldn´t be explained why all the genious minds of all the motor industry are not able to build an electric car that sells.

    First of all: Formula E cars are a lot slower than F1 cars, at slower tracks, and for a shorter ammount of time. Even if you split a F1 race in three chunks to make the battery last, at F1 tracks the cars would be slow. I mean, probably slow at F4 levels. Also, the two hour format that fits so nicely at TV would need to be changed. Of course, teams would need three cars, one for each short race, as batteries can´t be replaced quickly between races (I´m not even considering recharging them).

    Yes, Formula 1 probably will be electric some day, but the reports of the death of the internal combustion engine have been greatly exaggerated.
     
  12. DF1

    DF1 F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 10, 2007
    16,075
    BaWü
    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145438/when-to-take-penalties-very-complicated-for-honda

    The decision on when Honda's next upgraded Formula 1 engine will be introduced, which will trigger grid penalties for Red Bull, is "very complicated", according to the manufacturer's technical chief.

    Honda has already brought two engine upgrades during the 2019 season, which its aggressive development programme presenting the opportunity to introduce a third update the next time it gives Red Bull and Toro Rosso fresh engines.

    The Japanese manufacturer's Spec 3 engine made its debut in the French Grand Prix and has completed five races.

    With power-sensitive races coming up at the Belgian and Italian GPs, followed by one of Red Bull's strongest races in Singapore, either of the two races immediately after the summer break represents a logical time to introduce a new engine.

    These are traditionally favoured venues for changes that trigger grid drops as it is easier to recover ground at Spa or Monza without compromising a strong race in Singapore.

    However, Honda's F1 technical director Toyoharu Tanabe said a decision had not been made prior to F1's summer break.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    "We are discussing all the time with the teams and we will decide when we apply a new engine or updated spec," he told Autosport.

    "At the moment no decision has been made yet.

    "It depends on the situation and timing and the result of the discussions with the teams.

    "It's very complicated."

    Singapore will almost certainly be prioritised given it represents a significant opportunity for Red Bull to take another win this season, but Honda's home race in Japan is only the fifth race after the summer break.

    That is firmly in Honda's sights as the best opportunity for the manufacturer to score its strongest result at home since it returned to F1 in 2015.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    If Red Bull's leading driver Max Verstappen takes a grid penalty at Spa or Monza and does not take another fresh engine before Suzuka, he will have to contest Honda's home grand prix with a unit that is several races old.

    Honda believes its engines are now reliable enough to complete six full weekends without problem or significant degradation in performance.

    However, it may not be willing to chance that at Suzuka, and a potential solution to that could be an engine change at the preceding race in Russia.

    By sacrificing that grand prix, Honda could have a fresh engine ready for Suzuka, and likely have enough engines in the pool to complete the season without further changes or penalties.

    Tanabe added: "We have two types of plan, long-term and short-term.

    "After the race we review the situation, the condition of the PU, maybe two or three races is the short-term. "And the long-term means until the end of the season."

    "It is very complicated."
     
  13. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles

    - The reason is political mostly, added to market resistance.
    Governments make too much money on fuel taxes to give it up easily, in Europe certainly.
    Electric cars net a charging network, which the governments don't encourage.

    - It's never been a case of FE replacing F1, but F1 becoming electric (eventually), so comparison is futile.
    Everybody knows that FE is actually at F4/F3 level.
    But electric cars developing well over 1000hp ALREADY exist.

    - TV channels shouldn't be able to impose their format on F1. They don't have that power in other sports, so why should F1 bow to their requirements?

    - With 3 races over the weekend, I cannot see why teams would need 3 cars.
    All that would be needed is a 2-hour interval minimum between races
    FAST charging exist already, and a large battery can be fast charge in less than one hour (look at submarines technology).

    - We don't decide that. Market forces will decide the future of electric technology in transport and motorsport.
     
  14. johnireland

    johnireland Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 19, 2017
    2,216
    F1 will buy FE in the same way Ferrari once bought Lancia F1 team. The cars will be four wheel drones, piloted like Battle Bots. F1 is slipping over the edge and falling into the past.
     
  15. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    Some learned tifosi may correct me on that, but I don't think Ferrari ever bought Lancia.
    As far as I know, the Lancia team was offered to Ferrari by the receivers when Lancia went bankrupt circa 1955.
    The Italian government and probably the Agneli family (FIAT) may have influenced the decision.
     
    375+ likes this.
  16. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    29,137
    Manchester
    Full Name:
    Bas
    If F1 has any understanding of their fans they'll know it's the most pointless acquisition they could possibly do.

    Let FE be FE. F1 needs to be F1. And that means far removed from Electric ''racing''.
     
  17. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    29,137
    Manchester
    Full Name:
    Bas
    So...1 boring race or 3 boring formula E races? I don't know if you looked but people simply aren't interested in formula E. What you describe is quite literally formula E. So why have 2 of the same things? Get this fantasy of F1 becoming FE out of your head...it's not happening.

    ....really? You are aware that Dietrich is making a threat to leave but never has actually left? Same goes for Ferrari. Threatened more than enough times to leave...but never have. They want to get their way. RBR owning 2 teams and F1 in not a great shape means RBR holds quite a bit of weight.
     
  18. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    People who make constant threats but never put them to execution lose credibility in the long run.

    Trying to manipulate an organisation with that strategy can sometimes be a double-edged sword.

    I have seen it several times happening in business.
     
  19. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    29,137
    Manchester
    Full Name:
    Bas
    True...but can F1 afford RBR + STR leaving? I think not. Red Bull certainly can...I just don't think they will
     
  20. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    Again, you are not reading my post correctly.
    I never said that FE would become F1, but that F1 could become electric and overcome all the objections about battery duration, if they wanted.
    3 sprint races with 1000+hp cars would certainly be more entertaining than a 300km long race almost decided from the start.

    "It's not happening" ? Well, if people like Ross Brawn (did you bother to read his article?) at the heart of F1 are mentioning that F1 could turn electric before long; the idea has some traction. You can bury your head in the sand if you want, but I see more constructors interested in investing in an electric formula right now, than joining an ICE-based F1. That tells me something ...
     
  21. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    F1 could suffer more if an engine manufacturer was to leave, but not so much if Mateschitz was to quit.
    RB and STR don't need to fold, and could well be put up for sale and interest investors.
    Also, the proposed budget cap may well interest new teams to join F1, as long as it is enforced.
    If HRT, Marussia and Caterham hadn't been betrayed by false promises, they could still be with us.
     
  22. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    29,137
    Manchester
    Full Name:
    Bas
    And those false promises still lay fresh on the mind.

    If no one buys the teams (and this could very well happen), F1 has a 16 car grid. Not enough.

    What happens if renault and honda stop supplying engines? Renault going backwards at a rapid rate. They've quit (plenty of times) before...
     
  23. Bas Jaski

    Bas Jaski Two Time F1 World Champ

    Mar 24, 2008
    29,137
    Manchester
    Full Name:
    Bas
    IMO for 2021 engine manufacturers need to commit to a 2 year minimum supply deal that they can't simply back out off. And it needs to be done very soon.

    If they won't sign it, a cheap engine formula needs to be acted on. Dust off the V8s and bolt on a larger battery? Take all the expensive crap off the current engines and stay V6 with simple turbos, no MGU-h?

    Take the base spec V8 and add on 2-4 more cylinders?

    The V8 with KERS revamp is the cheapest way to go about it.
     
  24. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles
    Are you afraid of that ? I am not.

    A bit of chaos and adversity concentrate the mind, and the players in F1 (FIA, Liberty and the teams left) would simply put their heads together and come up with a solution. It wouldn't be the end of the world.

    They could do like in 52/52, and run the WDC with F2 cars. It worked perfectly well, and gave Ferrari 2 titles !!!

    Or allow 3-car teams to compensate, or allow "wild card" entries, etc ...

    There is always a solution if one wants one.

    Funny how MotoGP solved these problems before, and F1 wouldn't be able to.
     
  25. william

    william F1 World Champ

    Jun 3, 2006
    13,631
    England
    Full Name:
    William Denoyelles

    They could go a very simple route, and instead of looking backward, adopt electric power from 2021.

    That would be the cheapest way.

    LOL
     

Share This Page