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Replacing those 'long hoses' in a 309

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by dave80gtsi, Feb 28, 2004.

  1. dave80gtsi

    dave80gtsi Formula 3
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    Nov 3, 2003
    1,592
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    Dave Meredith
    As a part of my winter maintenance work for the 308, I am replacing -every- rubber hose on the car. Nearly all of these are 24 year old originals, including all of the fuel lines, and their overall poor condition leads me to conclude that this is a job well worth doing.

    I am a bit puzzled, however, as to the technique which I need to follow in order to replace the pair of hoses which run from the left side of the engine up to the front cowling area of the car. One of these hoses is the heater hose, while the other hose is a vacuum hose for the power brake booster. Both of these hoses run from the left side of the engine, disappear behind the left side fuel tank, and (presumably) run thru the rocker panel area beneath the door to the nose.

    Loosening each hose on either end and gently pulling on it, neither hose budges. This leads me to believe that there must be some clips or straps of some nature which are currently hidden from me and which are securely holding both hoses.

    Has anyone else ever replaced these hoses? If so, is one forced to drop the left side fuel tank so to be able to remove / replace the hoses? I don't see any other access to these hoses from underneath the car at the front, but might there be an access hatch of some form behind, say, the left front wheel? Basically, has anyone else B.T.D.T. and willing to offer some tips as to the best way to do this seemingly simple task?

    Many thanks - Dave / Ohio
     
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  3. dave80gtsi

    dave80gtsi Formula 3
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    .... ooops - that's a 30--8--, not a 309 (fat fingers, teeny keyboard keys!)
     
  4. Gianluca

    Gianluca Formula Junior

    May 6, 2003
    349
    Centreville, Virgini
    Full Name:
    Gianluca Chegai
    Hi Dave,
    I just finished those hoses. Please note that my engine is out of the car.
    Remove the front wheel on the driver side and remove the inner fender cover.
    You will see the 2 clips that hold the hoses to the frame.
    Remove the driver side gas tank and you will see the hoses disappering in the lower corner behind the gas tank.
    My car is an '81 GTSi and the coolant hose is 5/8" and the vacuum hose is 1/2".
    My original F. vacuum hose, looks like is a regular coolant hose. I replaced it with a Gate vacuum hose. The Gate's hose is, however, MUCH stiffer and a bit larger in diameter that the original. The coolant hose is same basic size (I am speaking of the OD)
    I duct-taped the old and new coolant hose with several strips and sprayed some silicone on the hose and inserted the new hose from the rear of the car with my friend pulling on the old/spliced hose. After we got about 3-4 in. inside the straight frame member, the tape gave-out (because of the silicone) but it was no problem at all just pushing the new hose all the way to the front.
    For the vacuum hose, however, I found that the opening is very precise and it wont allow for any external spliceing methods. I tried using the check valve to splice but the extra enlargment of the hose was too much for the hole to go through.
    I decided to insert a 1/4" rope INSIDE the vacuum hose, used the old hose to "shuttle" the rope to the front so that the new hose wouldn't be any larger.
    So now I have the rope inside the frame, my friend holding one end at the front, the vac. hose at the rear with the rope going inside it and the end of the rope coming out at the other end of the hose and the rope knotted at the far end of the hose. Now my rope is an internal "rail".
    It took a couple of minutes to insert the hose in opening but, once that was done, it was quick to push the hose all the way in.
    The fact that the hose is quite stiff, allowed my friend to pull on the rope and, although not with a great mechanical advantage, helped pretty much to pull the hose in.
    From 1-10 (1=easy) I would rate this job (with the engine out) a 4.
    I have no clue with the engine in. There are some nice posts on the old FChat.
    I guess there are many way to skin this cat. I feel that with a regulat coolant hose (instead or the vacuum hose) it would be easier.

    Gianluca
     
  5. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
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    Nov 29, 2001
    11,196
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    Mitchell Le
    The gas tank, and the panel behind it need to come out.
    THe small panel at the front wheel well needs to come out.
    Takes two persons, it's easier than one.
    And, definitely easier with the engine out, but not necessary.
     
  6. rivee

    rivee F1 Rookie

    Jan 20, 2002
    3,726
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    John
    I used some wire to tie the hoses together when pulling one out
     
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  8. KurtK328

    KurtK328 Formula Junior

    Mar 6, 2001
    347
    Villeneuve-Loubet, France
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    Kurt Kjelgaard
    I did the heater hose on my 328 with the tank in place.
    Not a big problem.
     
  9. Tennlee

    Tennlee Formula Junior

    Feb 10, 2002
    645
    Great Smoky Mountains
    I did it with the engine in, but while I replaced the timing belts and revived the carbs, so they were easier to access. I used modern heater hose and fuel lines from NAPA rather than ordering stuff from Italy. They guys at NAPA enjoyed helping. It apparently beat finding stuff for Buicks.
     
  10. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
    Professional Ferrari Technician Consultant Owner

    Dec 26, 2001
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    Rather than wiring the hoses together just slide in a socket the correct size to use as a connector and finish up with electrical tape to make it secure. The gts is harder than a b because of the different rocker design. The b is straight through front to back, not so on the s.
     
  11. Steve King

    Steve King F1 Rookie

    Feb 15, 2001
    4,366
    NY
    Has anyone considered putting in solid pipe ? Maybe install it from the front in 2 or 3' sections soldered together if you can't snake through 1 piece. It would be smaller on OD then rubber hose so maybe it can be done and you would never need to do it again.
     
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  13. dave80gtsi

    dave80gtsi Formula 3
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    Thanks to all who have responded to this one thus far!

    Is it correct to say, then, that the only clips holding these hoses to the car are at the front, behind the driver's side wheel? In other words, once you release these clips, the hoses are then free to slide without any further attachments? If this is so, then it seems to me as if there would be no need to pull the driver's side fuel tank - you merely attach the end of the old hose to the end of the new as has been noted, and pull out the old so to bring the new into place.

    Or, are there some additional clips / straps / brackets / etc. hidden behind the fuel tank which first must be cleared before one can do the above ... thus forcing you to remove the tank, no matter what?

    Thanks once again - Dave / Ohio

    By the way - it seems to me as if the vacuum booster hose should be a 3/8" rather than 1/2", as the attachment at the plenum at the engine is sort of in the middle - it's a tight fit for a 3/8" or a loose fit for a 1/2" (perhaps originally a metric equvalent of a 7/16"?). Speaking personally, I'd prefer the tight fit for this one since a vacuum will be pulled, and trying to squeeze down a 1/2" hose via hose clamps at each end might possibly lead to leakage.
     
  14. Newman

    Newman F1 World Champ
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    Dec 26, 2001
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    The hoses are only secured at the wheel wells and lay freely inside the rocker channels.
     
  15. dave80gtsi

    dave80gtsi Formula 3
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    I apologize if it seems like I'm beating a dead horse on this one, but when you say "wheel wells", do you mean both front and rear wheel wells, or do you mean only the front?

    Reason for this detail question is that, if it's also secured at the rear wheel well, then I have to plan on dropping the fuel tank, and that's a job that I'd certainly like to avoid for now if I can.

    Thanks and Cheers - Dave / Ohio
     
  16. bill308

    bill308 Formula 3
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    May 13, 2001
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    Paul Newman may be right on this but I suspect there may be a tab or two on the back side of the bulkhead near the gas tank.

    I replaced these hoses about a year ago and during the process had a good look into the rocker channel with a flexible endoscope. There were no tabs to be seen in the rocker channel.

    The technique I used was to make the connection between the old and new hoses with a piece of vacuum or fuel line, inside and wired to the old and new hoses. I wrapped this joint with a layrer of electrical tape. This provided a strong, flexible connection with little increase in OD. It might help to coat the od of the new hose with silicone spray to reduce friction prior to pulling the new hose through. I did the job solo but a helper pushing the new hose while your pull from the front wheel area, should ease the replacement.
     
  17. Gianluca

    Gianluca Formula Junior

    May 6, 2003
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    Centreville, Virgini
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    Gianluca Chegai
    Dave,
    I had only one tab at the front wheel well.

    Gianluca
     
  18. jwise

    jwise Formula Junior

    Apr 2, 2003
    781
    Portland Maine
    #15 jwise, Mar 2, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here is a photo of the tab behind the front well panel. The blue hose is the one you are replacing. Also check for any sharp edges rubbing against the new hose so it won't wear thru on you. I put a little foam pipe insulation on parts of this hose after the photo was taken.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  19. BillyD

    BillyD Formula 3
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    Ok, well i'm now in the process of attempting this hose replacement & figured I'd ask in advance about resealing this front access panel, Silicon? or ???
    Bill
     
  20. bill308

    bill308 Formula 3
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    A skim coat of silicone sealant on the joint after assembly wouldn't hurt.

    Bill
     
  21. BillyD

    BillyD Formula 3
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    Now that I have the access panel open & can see the hose it sure looks like its ok. I thought the engine side seemed a little soft but the rest sure seems like new. Should I really go through all the hassle? Its at least 16 yrs old & probably 29 years old.
    Lazy Billyd ;-)
     
  22. chrismorse

    chrismorse Formula 3

    Feb 16, 2004
    2,149
    way north california
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    chris morse
    Everybody does radiator and thermostat housing hoses - but if a heater hose - any one of them - blows, you are on the side of the road.

    DO Them ALL - every one of them - you will sleep easier. (I am working on it, but haven't done all of them yet).

    chris
     
  23. 308SYSTEMS

    308SYSTEMS Karting

    Dec 16, 2003
    51
    I replaced both heater and vacuum hoses with Gates products using the following technique - cut the hose end at a diagonal to provide better "slippage", then pop rivet a 1/16" steel cable to the ends, then pull the cable through the passage with a small cord, then tie the cable to a good pull handle, then use ample WD40(or similar lubricant) while the front wheel guy pulls on the cable and the rear wheel guy pushes like crazy - and voila' after a few rounds of this you will have new hoses :)


    my .02,
    Mark
     
  24. BillyD

    BillyD Formula 3
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    Sad to say that the brake booster line wouldn't budge, the heater hose moved & was replaced with no problem. Since both hoses looked brand new I'm not really worried. I moved the fuel tank & everything but it must have been anchored behind tank & it wasn't worth removing the tank to replace a perfectly good hose. DAM!
    Bill
     
  25. f360racer

    f360racer Karting

    Sep 14, 2004
    193
    Renton, WA
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    PJ Z
    I have an 83 308 GTS amd had to replace the "mysterious hose" that blew. It's mysterious because even using the SPC it was hard figuring out where and what the hose was for. I of course tried to cut the end off and reattach but the hose was in such bad shape I couldn't risk it. It was in fact the heater hose from the engine to the heater valves or the three way valve as Ferrari calls it. Using the 83 QV F SPC page (TAV. 19 the part is referance (Rif.) 39 in the picture and Part. No. 106699 Description Pipe, engine to 3-way union. In the picture #39 just starts from behind the engine and ends with no continuation or explanation. It is however redrawn in a blowup of the heater valves where #39 starts again and terminates in the above mentioned three way union (Y #13) not (T #16) Thanks to this thread I was able to figure out the procedure.

    I found the gates hose in 5/8 ID at my local auto parts store and bought 13' of it. Per the post above 11' is the actual length but for a couple of bucks and not knowing how it is routed in your car the extra length is fine. I had difficulty in getting the old hose out. I tried everything. The LH fuel tank was totally loosed from all 100 connections(OK just the two straps and 5 lines and three wires) and I still could not drop the tank. It did finally allow me access to the back to see what was going on with the stuck hose. On my GTS the angle and the hole to the rocker panel is at a sharp angle and my heater hose was wedged in it. I could have lifted the hose from behind the tank with it just loosed but in the end I am glad the tank was as back as possible from it's normal place to work the hose out.

    In the end once the blockage was spotted it was easy to get out and I hope the brake hose will come out tomorrow. I ran out of daylight by the time the hose was in. It's alot of work just for "one" hose!! I replaced all of the 5/8 ID hoses up front and plan on replacing the rest tomorrow if the parts store carries the sizes to finish. I will take pictures with stuff removed for you all tomorrow before trying to button everything up.

    I will also try to replace fuel hoses if able. I have to replace the fuel filler hose because I cut it to free the tank.

    Thanks again for all the previous posts,

    Philip
     
  26. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
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    The gas tank will not come out without dropping the rear suspension. Loosen the tank and move as far back as you can. I used liberal amounts of dish soap for lubrication and fed the hoses from the rear to the front. This really helps in a gts because there is a weird turn in the tunnel right at the rear end.
    I did the job alone and it was a real pain.
    Also maybe try wiring the new hose to the old ones. I drilled holes in the ends and tied steel wire to tie them together, then wrapped it all in duct tape. The only tight area was right at the rear where I fed the new hose thru.
     
  27. f360racer

    f360racer Karting

    Sep 14, 2004
    193
    Renton, WA
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    PJ Z
    Well the job is nearly complete. I found a great splicer that required no wiring to stay on. It was a 1/2" coupler for sprinklers. It worked for the 1/2" Brake Booster hose and the 5/8" Heater hose. Once connected it had to be cut off to seperate. Not bad for a $0.49 part.

    Now all the heater hoses except for a few of the 1.5" in the engine bay are changed and most of the fuel hoses are changed too. Using the above mentioned list for a 308 there are a few changes for all of us with fuel injection. I made a list but am too tired to post now as it is 1
    AM. I will post same info on the Sticky for 308 exchange parts as all of them I found except for the 1 3/8 Fuel hose sleeve from the drivers tank to the hard metal pipe to the other tank, can be found at your local auto parts store.

    All I can say is I couldn't imagine doing this job alone whether it's the heater hoses, no matter where they are. The 1 1/2 " sleeves on the bottom to the radiatior and the long metal pipes are a PITA. The only way I found to connect this one was to connect the front sleeve to the Radiator first and last to the lower of the two sleeves under the car in the front.

    Another problem is I had to remove the two coils to install some fuel lines to the drivers fuel tank and I forgot to mark which wires went where in case some fell off. Well they did, so in laymans terms which wire goes where. I searched the archives and found plenty of discussion but no real picture on what goes where. Most of the wires are yellow except for two green ones. Any simple way to wire these would be helpful. And while your at it could you verify which of the fuel level sending unit wires (The red w/black stripe or the violet one is connected where) Which one is connected closer to the firewall?

    Thanks for the help,

    Philip
     

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