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Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by WILLIAM H, Dec 29, 2003.

  1. WILLIAM H

    WILLIAM H Three Time F1 World Champ

    Nov 1, 2003
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    If someone where to offer a high quality replica of a 57 Testa Rossa or a 250 GTO or a 330 P4 with aluminum bodies for around $100-$150k with Ferrari engines & drivetrain how many people would be interested ?
     
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  3. ART360

    ART360 Guest

    The good GTO replicas run about 250 - 300k from what I've heard. I'd want to see the 100 - 150k version.

    Art
     
  4. Glassman

    Glassman F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Personally I would rather have my ratty old real 250 GT. If I had
    to I would cash in the replica, and buy an even more expensive ratty old real Ferrari!
     
  5. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Five Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
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    Texas!
    In a heartbeat so long as it had a transaxle and not a live axle.

    DrTax
     
  6. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ
    Staff Member Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Aug 1, 2002
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    L. Wayne Ausbrooks
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  8. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155
    I would love to own one of these replicas! I think true replicas like this, using alloy construction and original type engines and such are GREAT!

    I mean really.... for most of us average Joes, owning a real TR is just not going to happen and even if it did would you really take it to track days and flog it around?

    Me.... I would really like to have a '60 TR or even a '57 335S replica. If they could be purchased for $125K or less and were TOTALLY accurate, I would be interested.

    A company called Temporaro (I think thats right) is making alloy bodied, extremely accurate C-Type and D-Type replicas as well as Aston DBR-2 replicas. They get $135K for a new car. They use all accurate running gear.

    I really dont see the issue and controversy. Trying to pass a fake off as real is of coarse a crime and criminal behaviour is frowned upon. But enjoying a good fake for what it is.... a great driving, fun but fake Ferrari sounds like fun to me!

    If I had a '60 TR replica and people asked what it was... I would tell them is a 1960 Ferrari 250 TR replica built from Ferrari parts. If they sneer at it because its a replica, what do I care? If your purchasing a certain car because of what you think others are going to think.... perhaps you have other issues that need to be addressed in therapy. ;)

    Terry
     
  9. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,750
    Santa Fe, NM
    I don't want to rain on anybody's parade; and I've posted my feelings on this subject before on Tom Yang's site; but I think you have to be careful in deciding that the cannibalization of old street Ferraris to satisfy the demand for well-done racecar replicas is OK.

    Certain models have been unloved by the market for so long that they have become rarer than you might think by virtue of neglect and cannabilization. Here are some production numbers and my best educated guess on how many remain, esp of 2+2s which seem to be the favorite target for conversion to replicas.

    250 PF Coupes - 353 made - 175 to 200 surviving as PF Coupes?
    250GTE - 954 made - 450 to 500 surviving as GTEs?
    250 Lusso - 350 made
    330 GT 2+2 - 1139 made - 575 to 600 surviving (at least 47 documented replicas)
    330 GTC - 600 made
    365 GTC - 150 made
    365 GT 2+2 - 801 made - 400 to 450 surviving as Queen Mothers?

    Note the irony that there are almost certainly more Lussos than 250 PF Coupes out there.

    I am not a fanatic and do not necessarily believe that every single old street Ferrari must be preserved at all costs; if a car is truly clapped out and beyond hope, go for it and make it a TR (and be truthful about it)!. Just understand that the supply of donor cars is fixed, dwindling, and a lot smaller than you might think.

    my .02
     
  10. jsa330

    jsa330 F1 Veteran

    Oct 31, 2003
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    A comprehensive accounting of these surviving cars needs some type of measure of condition in it. For example, how do the surviving "least desirable" cars (330 2+2, Queen Mother, 250 GTE) rate on a 1-10 scale?

    If it were possible to inventory the known ones car by car, how many are "concours", how many are solid and roadworthy "drivers", how many are marginal but running, and how many are unrestorable and only suitable for parts or as basis for a conversion - a vastly better fate than just being scrapped. What about "lost" cars just sitting in the garages of very elderly or deceased longtime owners.
     
  11. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155
    Bryanp....

    I certainly would not argue with you. My opinion on replicas is predicated on the position someone would not destroy an otherwise nice condition Ferrari just to create a replica.

    If there is a clapped out GTE, or 2+2 that is rusty and/or wrecked it often is simply stupid to attempt a restoration. Why spend $100K restoring a car that will only be worth $50K when done and is unlikely to ever be worth huge money? Rather than see that type of "project" just continue to rot into nothing or be parted out, why not convert it into a TR replica! I sure hope however that nobody would ever take a nice driving GTE and destroy it to make a replica as that would be equally stupid.

    How about this replica:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2450929170&category=6212

    I actually really like this car, it looks like with a little work it would be tons of fun to drive. It is not however a Ferrari replica. It has no actual Ferrari parts and in fact doesnt really even look enough like any one particular Ferrari model to justify itself as a good fake. That does not mean I would not like to own it..... It just means that if I bought this car I would remove all Ferrari emblems and would refer to it as a my 1950s "special". It looks as much like a Devin or some other 1950s American special as it does a Ferrari (without the emblems that is) so why not just call it what it really is.... a very cool 1950s style special. I wonder what the donor car was? Looks like it could have started life as an MGA?


    Terry
     
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  13. Bryanp

    Bryanp F1 Rookie

    Aug 13, 2002
    3,750
    Santa Fe, NM
    I agree with the spirit of you post, Terry - but there is an "eye of the beholder" problem. The easy cases are at either end of the spectrum; you clearly would not butcher a concours car or hopefully not even a solid driver, while a candidate like the living-outside-in-Alabama GTE from last month would qualify for a conversion (for 99% of F-people). But a car found in not much better shape than the Alabama car is what Tom Yang has been putting his heart and soul into for the past several years. Even by doing most of his own work, I'll bet that Tom has spent (including purchase price) more than the market says his car is worth. But I'm sure as hell glad that Tom made the economically illogical decision to save one of the 17 surviving 330 Americas out of the 50 made.

    Again, I'm not condemning the replicar phenomena, I just think that tough case-by-case choices have to be made and that the criteria for which donor cars are truly goners is real subjective.
     
  14. Peter

    Peter F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Dec 21, 2000
    6,417
    B.C., Canada
    None of them actually...

    ...My fave: 250LM!!!
     
  15. tritone

    tritone F1 Veteran
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    Dec 8, 2003
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    byranp -

    great posts on the subject of replicas. Must admit I'd dearly love to have a faithful recreation of a 250 California Spyder, probably made from a 250 GT or a 250 GTE. But now that you've put the spotlight on the plight of the donor cars, the whole idea is slightly less satisfying!

    My next line of defense is "well if the 250GTE is SOOO rusty etc. that it'll never live on....". Now I feel a little better.... But maybe even that car should rather become transplants to keep other GTE's alive.

    Now economics comes in - the new replica California Spyder will involve lots more money than the GTE pieces will (both to build and in resale) - for quite a long time - so that looks a likely end result anyway - for better or worse.

    james
     
  16. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    I with Bryan on this one ... as most of you would already know. Personally I think it is disgusting to scavege of other Ferraris to make YET another GTO, etc. replica.

    If you want to do this why not do it properly and make the engine, etc. I have already investigated this and the 2 ltr 6 cylinder BMW engine which is single overhead cam with hemi combustion chamber is only 2 mm different in bore from a 330 v12. Cast a v12 block and make a crank, buy the rods and pistons and away you go.

    Put a common 5 spd gearbox behind it and any old beam axle and throw a few tubes on the ground and you have a 330 GTO.

    This is such a short sighted, I want to make money NOW attitude and stuff the future of classic cars. If this attitude continues the only front engined Ferraris (Columbo ones) to survive will ALL be GTO or TR replicas ... with a few original GTOs and TRs splattered in the middle. And before you say it is not about money ... read the original (atleast honest) post.

    Making a GTO replica does not mean you have a GTO, just a hacked up 250 GTE or whatever ...

    Come on guys we are supposed to be Ferrari enthusiasts not Ferrari wreckers. The time for this sort of cr*p was the '80s now we surely have matured and find the differing models ALL part of Ferraris interesting history ... not just the glamour models.

    Pete :(
     
  17. wax

    wax Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Jul 20, 2003
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    Dirty Harry
    I'd feel dirty. That's me, though.
     
  18. Tspringer

    Tspringer F1 Veteran

    Apr 11, 2002
    6,155
    Pete....

    I think you take the counter arguement a bit too far.

    There is no risk of all the old, cheaper, 250s being turned into replicas. The simple reality is very few, if indeed any new replicas are being made from rusted/wrecked old 250s. Even using the rotted remains of a lesser model, building a top quality replica (like the 250SWB replica Lord Brockett passed off as the real thing to all experts for years) costs hundreds of thousands to make.

    Not many will spend $250K to build a replica that can then be sold for perhaps $200K. Particularly when there are plenty of replicas for sale already.

    I think the replica phenomenon was child of the late 1980s boom and is largely past. Im sure there are some still being built and there will be more, but were not going to see ebay swarming them and real 250GTs or GTEs scarce.


    Terry
     
  19. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Maybe Terry, but then these sort of posts pop up ...

    Pete
     
  20. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
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    Oct 23, 2002
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    I'm with Terry. To build one that is righteous would cost more than it would be worth.
     
  21. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
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    Pete
    Yes I agree with you Jim. The problem IMO is that to make money they do not build one that is righteous, in other words like any car salesman they cut corners and the car ends up being a doubtful replica (and they use the fact that not all original ones are the same anyway story to make up for their inability to build a descent replica and do a proper job) that devalues very quickly when the poor chap that buys it bumps into any Ferrari knowledgeable person. Then now embarrassed to be seen out in it he quickly gets rid of it and the saga continues until it is hacked up or whatever ... and a probably boring but otherwise original Ferrari is lost.

    In the end restorations cost a fortune and are hard to do, as getting the details right (and you know all about this) is heaps harder than scraping and starting from a clean piece of alloy or steel and approximating the shape.

    Anyway I am wasting Robs disk quota because we have discussed this before. I have to admit I am still thinking (very long term) about making a 250 LM replica. I noticed the other day an add for original spec windscreens ... but I will not use any major Ferrari components, but it will have to weigh the same and have the same power, braking and handling characteristics so I can replicate the driving experience.

    Pete
    ps: I'll try hard to ignore these threads in the future as I am sure you are all sick of my rantings :)
     

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