That is an excellent write up. Thanks for the updates. BUT. I have the same "slow" starter issue you had that started this thread. Turn key to start, nothing happens. Hold the key to start and wait a second or two and 'boom'...the starter engages. How did you fix that?
Obviously I can't diagnose anything with certainty online, but generally speaking with what I've seen on the 348, starter issues are due to not enough current getting to the starter. This can come from bad connections to the starter, failing starter solenoid, bad relay, key switch, etc. The proper way to test is to measure voltage / resistance at each step of the circuit until you find the problem; it isn't a very complex circuit. That said, the fact that your car eventually starts after a delay SUGGESTS you just have a bad connection. When you turn the key, the delay is likely some portion of the starter circuit heating up due to increased resistance, until something finally gives and lets the car start. I initially used a 12V relay to "band-aid" my starter issue. The relay is a quick and easy way of amplifying a weak signal, and compensating for a lousy connection. There is lots of info on the starter relay fix, so I won't repeat all of that, other than to say ensure you add an in-line fuse, and consider using a solid state relay. Since I made this fix, I have replaced, cleaned, and reterminated MANY connections in my car and I suspect that the relay is no longer needed, but haven't had a reason to remove it. Good luck!
Thanks. I was curious what you discovered and how you corrected your issue. If it is related to mine or not is yet to be seen. I have had the starter rebuilt (horrible contact failure on one of the four lead on the windings. Thought that was it for sure...but not. Did check the primary wiring. Need to work my way from the key forward now. Was hoping you had a smoking gun to fix this issue Thanks for the response. I appreciate it.
If you know the starter is good, then you can almost certainly "fix" it with the relay, or at least eliminate those awkward moments in the parking lot.
How about the blatantly simple. All of these little signals need a proper ground. By unhooking the battery and resetting the possibility of a better ground is reinstated. If this is correct, then the input signals will change their readings and the car should run closer to the ideal setting. For those of you that turn your key and get a click....I have never seen anyone talk about a proper diagnosis. The cable that goes from your battery to your starter in the back of the car usually has a joint before it bolts up to the starter. This helps with the engine out services. Check here for corrosion. I'm willing to bet your click will go away.
The answer is not simply adding a relay (bad advice) The first thing you need to do is turn the key and test the SIGNAL wire for 12v. If you get 12 V here a relay will not be needed. Next measure the resistance from your positive cable on the battery to the positive on the starter. (Measuring volts will not work...it will most likely read 12v potential but internal resistance will not deliver the amps needed). Check the diagram...or better yet follow this cable from the battery all the way to your starter. Most likely you will find a union in this line that is causing your problem. (I know for a fact there is one on a 512TR) Next check the resistance from your starter to ground. Make sure your main engine block ground is tight and clean. If you do all of this.....you will not have a click.
I replaced the battery on my 2004 575M. I never shut the disconnect off and always use a tender when the car is parked. When I tried to smog the car shortly after the battery swap (around 75 miles) every sensor except both MAFs reset in the ECU. We drove and drove the car with hope that the MAFs would reset. Nevada allows one not ready sensor to pass. Unfortunately I had two not ready. Call to FOA. I need new software, but Ferrari in Italy is on holiday for the next 30 days. After holiday was over, Italy sent FOA the software. I had to send my ECU to FOA to load the new software. Everything worked out in the end. Isn't the idea of learning ECUs to adapt to the driving you are doing? How does my car leave my house purring when the ambient temperature is 110 F and I'm at 2400 foot elevation, and keep running smoothly when I drive up the mountain to 8700 foot elevation with an ambient temperature of 72 F? MAGIC!!!!
I don't disagree that the relay is not the "proper" fix, nor did I recommend any solution without testing the circuit. I was responding to a specific question, "how did I fix my issue." The issue most frequently seen, which is well known in the 348 community, is indeed a drop below the activation threshold of the solenoid, sometimes in tandem with worn contacts. In many cases, there is not even a "click" of the solenoid attempting to engage-- only the sound of humility. Root causes have historically been: - The ignition momentary switch itself (loose, internally worn) - The fuse box (corrosion on contacts, fuses, damage to multilayer pcb) causing reduced power to multiple systems Less frequently: - The harness passing through the firewall - The solenoid itself Adding a relay is absolutely an unnecessary complexity, and I appreciate your conviction. There absolutely is a lot of "bad advice" and quick fixes, however in this context, I think the big picture needs to be considered. The "correct" solution may require more technical expertise: expensive, replacement of the ignition, re-termination of amp connectors, work in the fusebox (that's a nightmare by itself), or anywhere else in the harness. The reason this "fix" persists is that it is an inexpensive ($20), and effective way to compensate for frequent, and often systemic issues, and one that has reversible and negligible impact when the underlying issue is fixed.
From what I understand there was a starter and alternator upgrade done during the 348 production run. When I bought my car last year I gave the VIN number to Ferrari to see about any outstanding recalls and was told there was one for the starter and was all done. This is what I found here on another thread, look at points 2 and 9: Here are the improvements that were made during Ferrari 348 production: http://webpages.charter.net/aircover/348/1994Ferrari348Spider.html 1. 05/30/91 differential side sealproduction improvement 2. 05/30/91 Bosch starter motor changed to Nipponproduction improvement 3. 10/10/91 cam seal housing modificationreduced oil leakage 4. 10/10/91 double plate-clutch changed in favor of single-plate clutchproduction improvement 5. 10/10/91 new alignment specsimproved handling 6. 10/10/91 improved mounting of front bonnet grill to address warpage 7. 10/10/91 front suspension shocks and springsproduction improvement 8. 06/01/92 rear A-arm fix point height reductionproduction improvement 9. 06/01/92 Delco Alternator changed to Nipponproduction improvement 10. 08/18/92 door grillsimproved strength 11. 08/24/92 oil sump tank ground strapimproved gauge operation 12. 11/03/92 front timing bearingreduced noise 13. 08/18/93 harmonic balancer replacementreduced weight - added 2hp 14. 08/20/93 clutch thrust bearing/slaveproduction improvement
My car wouldnt start at a 7-11 store I had just pulled into. Had to get it towed. Turns out the clip connected to the starter had failed, and broken. A 35 cent part fixed the problem. I removed the black plastic housing on the connector to do the swap. It is easy to see and reach from the engine bay. Go give it a jiggle.
Interesting but there are so many additional items not completely documented: There are at least 3 different final drive ratios - maybe 4. There is the 2 can exhaust swap for the single can version. We found in our Stooge survey at least 4 stock different ECU chip versions. I believe that the ECU itself was upgraded once - different part number. Motronic 2.5 upped to 2.7. Added a throttle position sensor to the 2.7 cars. 25mm wider rear wheels on SS, Spider and GT (Euro) cars. Relocated battery from rear to front of car. Added fuel vapor recycling pump to 1995 model. God knows what else?
What you are referring to here is part of the ECU code, and is commonly called STFT and LTFT. Short Term Fuel trim is usually erased when disconnecting the battery, and on most systems Long Term Fuel trim is not.
PS- and when you power the car off, after 10-15 minutes, don't forget to try the park lights,lighter, anything that can absorb some juice, just to know the electrical system is fully depleted, no residual saved anywhere.
Starter problem - don't forget this connector, the starter solenoid wire goes through it (thick white)
I was going to say this. On my 5.2 LTFT does not reset on power disconnect. I've removed the ECU from the car for over 24 hours and the value did not reset. I've been told only an SD type tool can reset LTFT. STFT values change very quickly (seconds or less), I can't see a reset of that doing anything. Whyte, how does your explanation reconcile with these facts? I am not trying to 'call you out', I am genuinely interested in understanding how these systems work the best I can.
I think the term 'sensors' and 'readiness monitors' are being used interchangeably. That is incorrect and causing confusion. Funny thing on my 5.2, a power disconnect does not reset the readiness monitors either. I have to use the clear codes command on my scanner. I have been told this also might be a problem with my particular scanner.
What is the procedure to “reset ECU?” How is disconnecting battery not doing that? Sent from my iPhone using FerrariChat.com mobile app
The engine ECU stores the idle parameters. Disconnecting the battery erases them. When you restart the car, you need to have all accessories and AC off. Let it idle for 10 minutes to reestablish the baseline. Apparently it continues to store idle history from each drive.
According to the WSM, on the 5.2 car, the ECU stores the learned parameters on a chip with a non-volatile memory. That is, you need power to erase the data, not loss of power. The 2.7 car doesn't have this feature.
Re-Acquiring Engine Control Parameters (after disconnecting battery or power disconnected from ECUs) I had a 1997 F355 spider (5.2 Motronic USA) and this was in my manual as well. Re-Acquiring Engine Control Parameters - Ferrari F355 Owner's Manual [Page 185] | ManualsLib (This manual is a copy of the 1997 USA owners manual (5.2 Motronic) Continues on next page here: Ferrari F355 Owner's Manual (Page 186 of 219) | ManualsLib
My mistake. My 5.2 (1998) Owner's Manual says the same as yours (no country is specified). I rechecked the WSM and does indeed say learned parameters are not erased. Maybe I was thinking of fault codes. So why do the posters above say the LTFT is not erased? Oddly, I must have disconnected the battery dozens of times and never had any problems.
Well, it does say this in one part of the manual... In another part, it seems to say the opposite. Page C61: Image Unavailable, Please Login
