Resto Mods or Not | Page 9 | FerrariChat

Resto Mods or Not

Discussion in 'American Muscle' started by Eric R, Jan 20, 2019.

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  1. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Yeah I really like what merc have done with the C6427 chev by putting dohc heads on it. Amazing how much potential there is in that motor just through breathing.
    If I were building some v8 powered track car like an ultima, that motor would be a no brainer, probably overkill for the track.

    For the road smootness wins for me, well smooth power with great sound. I dotn think you can beat the sound of a pushrod bent crank V8, or the way they make gobs of tq down low. I'tl be interesting to see how poeopel like the me vetet witht he dohc mtor, I think many will miss that instant 2 valve tq just off idle.

    If you want to talk second order vibes, the 1.8 toyoyamaha in my elise is a serial offender. A long stroke 4cyl, vibratey as hell.
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    Neither have I. A very good friend is an engineer for Cosworth and his masters work was in engine balancing. Of all the issues related to rod ratio, balance/vibration is not one. DOHC is without doubt in some ways a superior design but like any it has costs. Size, weight, complexity and a host of issues related to cam drive. The beauty of the LS series and a big reason for their popularity is the size/weight/HP$ formula which is very hard to beat. There are a lot of production engines, past and present capable of making all the power needed for street rod type cars, it becomes a matter of which characteristics are important for your particular situation.
     
    Texas Forever and INTMD8 like this.
  3. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    ^^ Agreed! :)
     
  4. Ak Jim

    Ak Jim F1 Veteran
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    I think there was an article in Forza a while back where someone did this, was a pretty sweet car.
     
  5. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    You want better breathing? Whipple makes just the thing. I am a huge fan of PD air pumps. They make my Lightning worth owning.
     
  6. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Yeah what does that ford camer weight, I hear its a really heavy motor.
    Supercharging is great for the street, for track, sustained runnign there are issues. On the vettes I think the superchargers effectively add close on 400lbs when all is said and done including necessary cooling systems. That sort of negates the weigth saving of a SBC,a nd then we have emission hurdles etc. Not surprising theyre going to quad cam and turbos, corse thats heavy too, but probably also a creature of legislation in terms of emissions/fuel economy.

    Personaly I dont love turbos, even the best systems have lag. However once youre going to 7 speed paddles the downshifts cover the lag. Still i have yet to drive a turbo that has the linearity of a NA motor or a supercharged one. They never seem to accelrate exactly the same twice, and its not as though you can mete out the power with micro precision. Still I think turbos are now a fact of life. Maybe the electric turbo will give the best of both worlds.
     
  7. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    I have had a number of supercharged cars, both positive displacement and centrifugal. Also turbo cars. Cannot possibly imagine where a 400 lb weight comes from. Every single piece on my Lightning set on a scale wouldn't come to 150. And that doesn't count what you'd have to add to run without it.
     
  8. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    My understadign is that for the ZR1 the intercooler and cooling requirements including addtional radiators and coolant added the weight.
    Dry weight vs wet weight is always a debate.
     
  9. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Theres also a guy in this site who has put a V12 in his 308. I think just to make it even more complex he grafted testarosa heads onto a 400 block.
    Theres a guy in uk whos turning a 355 into a V12 F40, apprently the wheelbase of the two cars is the same.

    Not easy even if you have the skills and time.
     
  10. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

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    The number is BS.

    As for overall cooling, HP= heat. 600 hp requires X cooling capacity no matter how you make it.

    As for an intercooler and plumbing every factory intercooler set up I have seen was about 50lbs wet. So where is the additional 350 lbs.?

    Did this come from the same source that said Studebaker engines were built like watches and rod ratio caused vibration?
     
  11. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    As per GM there is 150lbs dry weight difference between a Gs and a ZR1. The ZR1 has a lot more weight saving CF. To this we must add the weight of additional coolant needed. So yes maybe 200-250lbs not the 400 I quoted.

    The studebaker article I had read in one of the english calssic car magazines, each month they did an article on great engines of the world. BTW they rated the SBC near the top.
     
  12. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    Just looked up the camaro
    As per GM

    The difference in weight between a ZL1 and a camaro SS both auto is 400lbs, thats before we add coolant.
     
  13. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    You do realizer that the supercharged vette motor needs to develop an additional hidden 150 hp to drive the supercharger at full tilt. So in effect a 600hp motor output really needs to make 750hp to drive superchager and extract the 600 at the crank. Thats a different thermal load than a 600 hp na mtoor. In addition the supercharged motors have intercoolers because compressing all that air creates a lot of heat, and the intercooler needs a cooling system.
     
  14. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Where are you getting your figures? On Chevrolets site it lists the following curb weights (with fluids)

    ZR1 coupe is 3560
    GS coupe is 3428

    132lbs

    Camaro ZL1 coupe 3944
    Camaro SS coupe 3697

    247lbs
     
  15. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    I can give you guys a separate thread to debate aftermarket engines if you want.

    A SBC 350 gives hugely usable torque very, very cheaply. Or a 383.

    This is, after all. For Resto-rods. Most of those won’t fit a supercharger after all.

    Matt
     
  16. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    We have the same number for the corvette. Im making a slight adjustment because the ZR1 has a lot more CF to save weight and ceramic rotors which save a lot of weight, thats why I said 200 lbs before fluids. These are dry weights. How many radiators does the ZR1 have whats the total coolant capacity vs the GS.

    the ZL1 figure I got from the Gm website, even with 247 lbs difference you quote, add fluids and the gap grows due to the supercharged motors having much greater coolant capacity.. Is the ZL1 aqnd SS both iron rotors I dont know.?
     
  17. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    ZR1 has carbon fiber but also more/larger aero pieces, larger brakes, larger calipers so what the actual difference is besides the forced induction and other necessary components is a guess.

    Not sure why you keep mentioning "add fluids"? Curb weight is what the cars are listed at and that includes the fluids. (they are not listing dry weight)

    A better comparison would be C6 Z06 Carbon and C6 ZR1. Same car/components except naturally aspirated vs supercharged and 200lb weight difference.
     
  18. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    I've seen more that would have room for a supercharger than ones that wouldn't. Even under a stock hood.
     
  19. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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    Like what?

    I have no room in my ‘61.

    There’s no room in a Mercedes W111.

    Very few others.

    Matt
     
  20. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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  21. boxerman

    boxerman F1 World Champ
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    I understood manufactuers list dry weight as the curb weight.

    In any event I agree with your C6 zo6/Zr1 comparison, thats valid 200lbs.

    It will be interesting to see what the vette version of Batwing quad cam V8 weights comported to the supercharged SBC. Ill say the quad cam will weight more.
     
  22. Smiles

    Smiles F1 World Champ
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  23. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
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    Boxerman, not sure how that's possible, dry weight is by definition dry and curb weight as defined is operational/with fluids.

    I'm very interested to see the quad cam engine :)

    Matt, yeah the old stuff was huge in comparison to the OEM superchargers today. LT4 from a new vette is even lower profile than the LSA/LS9 stuff.

    Edelbrock eforce is a similar configuration.
     
  24. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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  25. Wade

    Wade Three Time F1 World Champ
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