Hey Dave- How much was the kit from GT? Did you have to use the original belt tensioner? I know Dr. Tom's opinion about hose leak trouble is common but that's not been my experience. Cheers, Tom
Well, it IS true that the molecules of 134 are smaller than R12 and, therefore older hoses that are OK for R12 may leak/seep with 134. Thats why the hose construction was changed for auto use when 134 came in. FWIW, the hydrocarbon refrigerants have even larger molecules that R12 so they are the least hose sensitive of the three.
Given enough time, the 134 is going to fizzle out of the R12 hose material. This is a valuable heads up because when the system isn't blowing cold anymore, look here first and don't assume or spend a bunch of money chasing down the problem elsewhere.
That's comforting - I changed to propane mix (Hychill) and haven't looked back. Minus 3*C at the vents. The biggest improvement to my system was fitting a relay on the high speed circuit at the fan. It gives a huge boost to airflow. I also put an extra duct on the evaporator housing when I had it out, which is taped up for now, but will be there should I want to fit a vent on the other side of the steering column in future. I also noticed a huge hole in the panel where the main outlet of the A/C goes up under the dash, allowing hot air to flood in - stick your phone under there and take a few shots. Once I plugged that up with foam, the efficiency went way up.
Thanks, it's been OK for the last couple of weeks but we shall see how long it takes. Believe me in this 115 degree AZ heat, i'll be pullin new lines at the first hint of failure. The kit uses the original tensioner. You will have to talk to Bill or Dave at GT Car parts as my pricing was different, as he used my car to build and put together fittings. Plus I don't even remember what I paid as it was miniscule compared to the cost of the overall engine rebuild.
My OEM hoses held R124a just fine for 2 or 3 years after the conversion, then the compressor seal let go, not the hoses!
Hi all, I have just fitted the Retroair kit to my 85 Euro QV and though I’d add my comments for what they’re worth. Firstly this is not for the faint hearted and there is a lot of hand fitting required. Even more so in my case as this car never left the factory with A/C fitted. CONDENSOR Taking the radiator out and fitting this on the bench is the only way. The supplied brackets require a trial and error approach until you get the “correct” orientation. Overall it’s not as neat an install as you might have expected. RECEIVER/DRYER AND PLUMBING The receiver/dryer fits the stock bracket. If your going to use the supplied Hi/Low pressure switch then the short port is the only option. You’ll need to remove the installed over pressure valve and replace it with the switch. This is a mandatory requirement in my part of the world and so the factory Hi and Low pressure switches and associated plumbing were discarded. Less chance of leaks that way. The wiring (mentioned in another post) is very straight forward at this point. Essentially all the switches are wired in series from the fan switch on the centre console orange/black>>>thermostat switch>>>Hi/Low switch. The orange/black wire and black wire from the old factory high pressure switch (the square thing with the copper capillary tube) simply get looped together. The black wire is the +ve feed to the compressor clutch. Yes there are 2 relays and the RH fan will come on when the A/C is on. The routing of the new hoses is especially critical in a RHD car as there is little clearance for the spare tyre. COMPRESSOR Given my starting point there were a few gotchas here. The front timing cover was probably not intended to take the York compressor so the holes in the York top bracket did not line up with the boss in the timing cover. The lower leg of the bracket had to be moved 13mm. Also the timing cover was not drilled and tapped for the studs. This had to be done very carefully in a drill press to make sure everything ended up perpendicular. Running the new hoses from front to back presented few problems. The RH fuel tank had to be drained and released from its mounting but not removed. I used an electricians snake to get the hoses around the lip just behind the fuel tank at the end of the sill. The larger diameter #10 hose is best done first and you definitely need to leave the hose fittings off. The only way to get the drive belt on/off is to fully slacked the 3 mounting bolts so the compressor hangs just that bit lower. The idler pulley doesn’t do a whole lot in this respect. The belt does not come with the kit. EVAPORATOR Ahhh the real fun part. I had the pleasure of adapting a LHD unit to fit a RHD car. I’ll spare you… The Dash does not have to come out. You can just remove the seat and the forward part of the centre console and the under dash vent. (If you want to replace the shrivelled flaps inside the air distribution box then you do.) The round centre vent in the top of the distribution box is easily pulled out and there was just enough room to put my hand down from the top and guide the evaporator housing onto its hose. Some lube on the Evap housing is worth applying to assist with this. The evaporator housing is held in by 4 screws, 2 front and 2 back. Once the footrest is out of the way it can be easily accessed and then withdrawn. You just need to work it around the wiring and disconnect the drain tube. I did this with the tx valve in place. On the bench its relatively easy to dismantle the unit. The pop rivets need to be drilled out and you need to be careful otherwise if you nick the core tubes you’ll have an impressive leak to fix. Ask me how I know! The new Spal scroll fan unit and the laser/plasma cut reinforcing plate are not an exact fit by any stretch of the imagination. There will be a lot of hand fitting required to get everything lined up. The supplied screws are too short and I think 9/32” heads. Good luck finding a spanner for those. This has been mentioned in other posts. I just bought longer metric screws with nylock nuts. The external mounting brackets are pop riveted on from the outside by the factory. I found this caused problems getting the core back into the housing. In the end I riveted them on from the inside. Who’s going to know?? CONCLUSION Overall the system seems to work quite well. The fans produce a good flow of air and the temp was down to 3degC flat out. Yeah probably not far from icing up at that point. Its still fairly mild here at the moment so the real test is yet to come. The instructions that come with the kit are just a basic guide not a step by step how to do it. All the screws supplied in the kit are UNF. I guess any time I say that something is “easy” I just mean easy by Ferrari standards. Final comment…do-able but a colossal amount of fiddling required.
Just as a final update on the Retro-Air adventure...The cheap Chinese compressor proved troublesome. Obviously the manufacturing tolerances are not what the could be. I had a lot of trouble getting the low side port "O" ring to seal. After several changes of fitting/"O"ring I finally gave in and resorted to Rectorseal AC leak freeze. It actually worked very well but took about 4 hours or running before the leak was no longer detectable. I used a WJL-6000 halogen leak detector which also worked very well and for $35 did as good a job as something 10x the price. So the net result then is a 15degC temperature drop between ambient and what's coming out of the evaporator. My home AC isn't that good. The flow volume from the up-rated fans is also good. What isn't good is the underlying problem of heat loadings coming into the cockpit from all directions. The fact that it's a GTS only makes things worse. On a really hot day, say 40degC, the temp in the cockpit will quickly go over 50DegC. Now your 15DegC drop doesn't seem so wonderful and all you seem to be doing is staving off heat stroke for just a bit longer. Under less stressful conditions it works well enough and certainly draws out all the humidity.
Well - it sounds as if even with a "better" ac system, it's still marginal at best. That's disappointing when you consider that any factory air system on modern cars can make the cabin comfortable under the same conditions. Basically the "factory" 3x8 Ferrari system is an add-on in its design/implementation. If you look at an old Mark IV Monitor from the late 50's that were available installed by dealers in the US, you are looking at essentially the same thing. They worked about as well as the 3x8 Ferrari system does - though they were cooling cars that had 3-4 times the interior space. Frankly, I cannot understand why an effective system for these cars cannot be EASILY made. But apparently it isn't that easy. I realize that the temperature drop in an ac system is typically quoted as 20F degrees. IOW, if the AC system can drop the temp 20 degrees, it is working OK. But as the OP stated, if it's 120F in the car, dropping it 20 degrees still only gets you to 100F which is almost 30F too hot for me to be comfortable. HOWEVER, our knock-around Hyunda Santa Fe has no trouble managing mid-70's cabin temps in 100F+ Texas temps so apparently the 20F drop spec is not really accurate (or not correctly interpreted). What does a modern Ferrari have for an AC system? I can't imagine that anyone is going to buy a current model and put up with poor air conditioning. What was the first Ferrari model with good AC? What were the components in that system?
Would depend if you're recirculating air, or getting in fresh air? If it's 120 in your vehicle, and it drops it 20 degrees, then it's now 100 in your vehicle, and it can drop it 20 degrees, so now it's 80 in your... you get the idea. Obviously there's the law of diminishing returns. If it's 20 inside your car, it's not going to make it 0. As the air gets colder, the ability of the system to drop that temperature reduces especially if there's a lot of external heat involved. If it's 100 outside and you're getting fresh air in constantly, then it will be about 80 inside at best.
Good point re internal air re-circulation/temp drop (which is the 3x8's only mode of operation). But we never select re-circulate on our other cars and they can keep a much larger cabin comfortable in extreme temps.
Oh - without a doubt. I think my car is on "auto" all the time - switches the recirculating on and off depending on air quality somehow. Can still freeze you out though - but it has a 30 year advantage over the 328.
Every summer I look at upgrading my AC. This summer is no different. I wonder if adding the new blower motor provides enough CFM to add additional vents hidden under the dash? What is the limiting factor of the 308 AC system? Capacity? Air flow? Is the evaporator inside the car sufficiently sized (not sure anything can be done about it)? The cabin could probably benefit from additional insulation. Black interior in Texas doesn't help either!
I believe it's air distribution. Those 2 small vents under the stereo are barely enough for air to move into the cabin.
Any updates from those that installed the RetroAir kit? Interesting that HotShoe’s kit included a genuine Sanden made in Japan but barry308QV’s kit had a Chinese knock-off.
Another inherent problem with our cars when it comes to AC cooling is that the radiator heat rejection is directed over the hood and impacts the windshield making it hot. Ordinary vehicles route the heat rejection from the radiator into the engine compartment. The roof on the GTS vehicles is not particularly well insulated. My roof interior is warm to the touch when the sun is out in the summer. Some of its heat also comes from the aforementioned radiator heat rejection flowing over the top of my GTS. Every little bit of heat entry (in addition to insufficient AC) adds to our discomfort.
the 308 - 328 A/C issue is a hard one. You have hot air leaking in from under the dash and hitting the windshield at all times, on top of the huge greenhouse effect. the fan system is not strong enough to circulate air in the cabin... Mine works well, but you end up with your right side cold, and left side hot. ceramic film on the windows has helped about 20-30% reduction on heat... its really comfortable on hot days while you are driving at above 3K RPM... stop and go Traffic too much heat sink. sealing the cockpit, and then finding an evaporator & fan system that can pump out copious quantities of air ( like a modern car ) might help, but I think its just a tough situation for that car. not to mention you have hot water pipes running between the seats...
+1 This has been my major gripe. I can't prevent hot air from flowing out of the under-dash vent above my left leg. It's the main reason I sweat like a pig driving this car. I keep swearing I'm gonna pull apart the dash and re-engineer that vent plate to be able to seal off completely. I refreshed my A/C, and it blows cold air from the A/C vent. Problem is it's competing with the hot air "leaking" from the dash, and the radiant heat from the coolant pipes. Zero sum game. Plus, I have to run a faster idle to not bog in stop & go traffic with the A/C on. Beau via Tapatalk ig: @beauschmo
https://www.classicautoair.com/shop/ac-parts/compressors/sanden-double-v-groove-ac-compressor-134a-top-ports/#&gid=1&pid=4 look closely. WYSIWYG and now its failed
Image Unavailable, Please Login The Sanden Compressor that came when I purchased a ClassicAir kit for a 308, second hand, from a FerrariChat-ter. "Made in Japan" Mike Flanagan
Mine was also made in Japan. I insulated the front, back cabin's walls and any other leak points of the system when I installed this kit from RetroAir / ClassicAutoAir as part of my 308 restoration. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
You know, I have always thought that the cabin is so small in these cars that a decent AC system should be able to cool it with the windows down and the top off (GTS)!!!
OK so now I've replaced the compressor with a real Sanden and the receiver/dryer. I flushed the system with methylated spirits and compressed air. I vacuumed it down for 90min and it held 30inHG overnight so I re-gassed. It is noticeably better than before. Icy to the point of becoming uncomfortable. The system seems to work better with slightly less than the recommended 640g/24oz charge weight (580g). I was recording -2degC at the outlet although I don't seem to have any two thermometers that read the same so maybe that's apocryphal. Pressures on my gauge set were 30psi on the low side and 185psi on the high side at 26degC ambient.
