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Schumacher's 99 accident

Discussion in 'F1' started by tifosi12, Jan 26, 2004.

  1. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    The discussions we had over Senna's accident made me think about Silverstone 1999. Did we ever hear, what caused that accident?

    I once heard, that a mechanic (who?) forgot to plug the rear brake fluid lines and Michael had no rear brakes hence sailing off.

    Anybody confirm/deny this?
     
  2. F1racer

    F1racer F1 Rookie

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    Here's what I found on a website...

    "Following the accident of Michael Schumacher at the British Grand Prix, Ferrari are conducting a full and urgent investigation. What has been established so far, is that the accident was caused by a sudden loss of pressure in the rear brake circuit. This was due to the loosening of a brake bleed nipple on the left rear caliper. The reason for this loosening of the nipple has not yet been established."
     
  3. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Yep that sounds like a team quote to cover a driver error ... IMO.

    Personally if you loose only your rear brakes you do not SCREAM off the race track like MS did. In my opinion this is what happened:

    1. MS made yet another really bad start ... a career trademark unfortunately.
    2. MS then over drove like a lunatic ... and tried to undo quickly what the bad start had caused.
    3. MS tried to go around the outside of Irvine, probably expecting Irvine to back off and let him in.
    4. The was no way on this earth that MS was going to get around the outside of that corner at such speed and thus went off. If Irvine had stopped on the track then yep MS would have got around ...

    We all make mistakes and I respect the team for taking the hit and keeping the flames off MS ... and they had reason to with all the mechanical BS that was happening with that car or the 97-98 cars.

    There have been many times MS has made these mistakes (like the 98 Spa incident with Coulthard ... yes Coulthards mistake but MS did not need to pass him like his life depended on it ... he could have finished the race behind Coulthard and still won!).

    Definitely a flaw in the otherwise incredible MS's armoury (sp?).

    Pete
     
  4. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Hmm, interesting. Never heard that explanation.

    You might have a point though: He was able to greatly decelerate from the time he went off until impact. Not sure the front brakes alone would have done that AND kept the car in a straight line.

    I never heard anything later on so I was curious what the story was and the fact that we never heard/saw a mechanic reprimanded might give you another point.
     
  5. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    I watched that clip a few times and he had a full lock up on the front.
    Nothing locked in the rear. I know the front brakes take most of the force but I would think that the back discs would glow from the friction.
    He didn't scrub much speed either. :(
    He should be on his 7th WDC.
     
  6. Hubert

    Hubert F1 Rookie

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    If he had no rear brakes, he would have gone into the wall backwards. As the instant he would have hit the brakes, the fronts would have locked, the rear would have lifted and he'd be in the wall backwards -- there's no way a car with only locked fronts, at race speeds, would stay arrow straight.
     
  7. acw

    acw Karting

    Nov 3, 2003
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    I do believe Ferrari. On race cars with brake bias valve, when you lock the front, you dial in more pressure to the rear. I can definitely imagine that a loss of pressure in the rear would cause the front to lock at the braking threshold.

    AW


     
  8. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    You can bash MS all you want but you are forgetting a few points. When you lock up the wheels you slide a hell of a lot more than if you just apply enough pressure to slow down. And with poor rear brakes it would have made the problem worse.
    As for the DC thing. Have you ever raced at 200 mph for 2 1/2 hours? If not... be quiet. It's hard to "back off" a little. You have been pushing all race and now you are going to change your braking zones, turn in points and risk turning in too early and hitting a curb too hard and spinning off? Or on you greasy tires maybe let them cool down some so when you are in a high speed turn you just fly off track? Yeah that's a good idea! Or maybe you run into a clutch problem {among other things} on the last lap, but instead of losing 10 seconds and still winning you come in 8th because you "backed off" 20 laps ago!!! And by the way DC was going way too slow with no safty light! DC has been accused with testing his brakes before. You have to think, team orders were a big thing back then, who had the most to gain from DC driving so slow? His team mate maybe?
    And as for >>>"MS did not need to pass him like his life depended on it ">>> He came around that turn at racing speed, DC was going hella slow, MS had to either pass or slam into the back of him. It's a race, you should go fast. Am I missing something?
     
  9. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    He had rear brakes, they were just poor at the time. And if he had no rear brakes at all, he wouldn't have hit the wall rear first straight on. He would have been spinning. Just to clear things up.
     
  10. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    If I recall correctly, a pace car had just left the track {pace cars were very rare in those days} and they were back up to racing speeds very quickly. He went into Tamburello at race speed but since the cars were slowed down for a handfull of laps the tire presures were a few pounds lower. And as you may know F1 cars are tuned to the finest standards, the car was riding a few milimeters closer to the groung {low pressure in tires} and he bottomed out the car. So instead of air rushing under the car very quickly to suck the car to the track, the worste thing in the world happened.... He lost all of that wonderfull downforce {the whole underside of these cars are designed as a "wing" for more downforce} and the back end "stepped out" he reacted very quickly, then the car snapped back and again he reacted with lightning fast reflexes but it was too late there was no more track left to use in his attempt to settle the car. He did not die because of the loss of downforce or even hitting the wall. In fact he would have jumped out of the car and walked away, if it hadn't beed for the front right wheel slamming into the wall then bouncing up and hitting him in the face. Even with great advances in technology, like teathers {sp.} to hold wheels near the car so they don't bounce into the crowd or other cars, racing is still very dangerous, and in this case very costly.

    Either plant that right foot, or get off the track. Pushing is the only way to stay alive.
     
  11. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I forgot about the pace car, but now vaguely remember it. That would make the explanation of the tire pressure more logical. I didn't buy that because the race was already about 5 laps old, but yes, if they followed the pace car, bottoming out in Tamburello would make sense. Interesting.
     
  12. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    It's quite sad. With all the technology on that race track and all of those wonderfull minds behind the scenes, couldn't someone think of that before this happened?
    When I become F1 champion, things are going to change.
     
  13. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Good. Do me a favor and introduce 'reverse grid' for the starting positions. Just to keep things entertaining.
    :)

    PSK, where are you?
     
  14. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    I'll tell me where I am if you tell me what "PSK" is.
    Nova Scotia Canada.
    As for the reverse grid it's already in my book.
     
  15. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    PSK is actually Pete from down under. And he is 100% opposed to reversed grid. You could say he is reversed on the reversed grid question. Which of course makes sense if you're from down under...ok nuff nonsense.

    Glad that it is already in your book. I think this year we'll have an interesting season ahead of us regardless. But for years where one team just dominates (doesn't matter who that is), reverse grid would be a lot of fun as we have seen last year in Silverstone.
     
  16. 62 250 GTO

    62 250 GTO F1 Veteran

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    Any rule change is ok as long as it's a fun race and a Ferrari crosses the line first!
     
  17. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    PSk is back ... sorry guys I had to go home and spend some time with the family, and then sleep a little :D

    As for bashing MS ... hmmm, I am one of MS's biggest fans, infact I used to have a problem watching him when he was in the Benetton because I loved to watch his talent and wanted him to win ... but also wanted Ferrari to win. Thus when he moved to Ferrari I was a very happy chappy.

    Regarding the MS crashing into DC, I can see your point, but it was a very costly mistake and yes DC did the wrong thing and it probably was dirty McLaren tactics, but MS had a lot more to loose than DC. You would not see MS make that mistake nowadays because he has learnt that to win championships you do not have to win every race ... like Prost, Lauda and Stewart learnt in their days. This means we have lost some of that raw MS talent, but we (Ferrari) have gained much from his new maturity.

    As for the reverse grid ... hmmm, I said my bit before but just for the records. F1 is supposed to be about pure racing not a circus. It is not supposed to be a TV drama, but a pure sport like the Olympics. If some find F1 boring then please change channel and leave it alone for the rest of us who like watching REAL sport. I very rarely watch any of the Olympics because it bores the pants of me ... but do I request that the races are staged to increase interest ... no, I change channel. Pure sport is what made F1 great, take that away and you have just another crap racing series like V8 supercars or NASCARS, etc. That is why to some degree I apose sponsorship because that has reduced the sport and created the business.

    Imagine what F1 would be like if the drivers could race 100% instead of having to worry about keeping their bosses happy, etc.

    Pete
     
  18. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Just a few comments:

    - Like you were happy when MS moved to Ferrari, I would love to see JPM move to Ferrari. That would make me a happy camper. Although we wouldn't have the same effect...

    - Your comments about DC and McLaren made me think. I was incredibly upset when it happened and like MS convinced it was on purpose. After the rage settled I thought that DC is too nice a guy to do such a thing. I'm no DC fan, but one thing everybody agrees on that he is a straight shooter. Mc Laren tactics? Dennis is mephisto's helper, no question, but it would still be DC to move onto the racing line. I still have doubts it was intentional. Whatever, fate "punished" DC enough.

    - I hear your comments about the circus. To me reversed grid would actually increase the competitiveness. If you're starting from behind, you couldn't just sail away in front and then nurture the car home. You'd have to take risks to make it back to the front. Real hard racing. Plus it'd be risky just working through a full field. As we saw in Silverstone. The real men would still end on top, but they would have worked harder to get there. Anyway, it's a mood point, it'll never happen.
     
  19. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    You just never know what will happen?. If Ferrari keep winning then I can see all sorts of strange things happening to keep the money pouring into Bernies pockets.

    Here is my suggestion, if we all cannot handle soembody dominating and demonstrating their speed:

    Maybe they should have 2 x 50 lap races with a 1/2 hour gap between, where they can do maintenance, etc. The second race grid is in the reverse order of the first race finish. The first race order is in the qualifying order as per normal.

    The days results are worked out by aggregated time for the both races, ie. if MS wins the first, and JPM comes in 8 seconds behind in 2nd ... and JPM wins the second but MS comes in only 2 seconds behind then MS wins the day as he only has 2 seconds added to his total and JPM has 8. Thus MS gets the 10 points and JPM gets the 6 (hehe I'm returning to the old point system :)).

    Thus we have real insentive to race hard in both races, and also qualify well too. If you blow your engine in the first race you can start the next at the front but you will have acumulated the last finishers time plus 10 seconds (as a penalty for not finishing) and thus to win the day you will have to win by more than that margin ... and thus drive like a lunatic :D

    Do we have pure racing here?

    Hmmm, we still have a true qualifying period where pole means something, as surely to start the first race on pole is still the way to go (?). With a reverse grid I can see a lot of BS staging going on to get up the front of the grid.

    With the aggregated score for the day, we would have a very intense second race, as even mid race runners (such as Jaguar) would be giving it their all as they might get a big enough lead to get some decent points. Thus we could have say Weber winning the second race with a 40 second gap over MS, but MS won the first with a 50 second gap to Weber, etc. Thus no slacking off time for anybody in either race, as the clock is as important as the finishing position.

    Pete
     
  20. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    Pete, a few remarks:

    Love your suggestion, would make for dramatic racing for all the reasons you give, but here are some problems:

    Bernie buys satellite time for his global transmissions. He tries to keep that time to a minimum for cost reasons. That's also why we don't really see the long pauses in repeat starts anymore or why they have become very reluctant to red flag a race and rather bring out the pace car.

    You end up with the phantom races against the clock. We had that in past and people didn't like it because what you saw on the screen wasn't necessarily what was happening on the clock.

    No BS staging would go on with reverse grid: You place the cars based on the current WC standings. So the best guys in the Championship end up at the back of the grid. If they don't make it to the front somebody else will move up in the points and the situation reverses. It will keep the WC very tight or at least the races dramatic. You would loose qualifying though. Whether that is a big loss given the current system is questionable.

    Back to you.
     
  21. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

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    Bloody Bernie, and his empire!!! I said it before money is ruining my sport :D

    Arh, yes that is clever and would remove the BS. I think that we have already lost the best part and that is qualifying and it must be a huge shame for people that actually go to the actual race weekend live, etc. I personally loved qualifying on the 2 GP's that I have been too. Thus as you say already gone ... so I guess it comes down to do we want qualifying for real back or not?

    Pete
     
  22. tifosi12

    tifosi12 Four Time F1 World Champ
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    I loved the qualifying in the old days (oh, no here he goes again!). Remember in the turbo era where they one uped each other, when there was no limit on number of laps etc.

    Then came the nineties with the qualifying limited by number of laps etc and you waited 55 minutes to see then all teams go out in the last five minutes. That sucked. Having lost that qualifying session didn't hurt me much.

    With the current system we gained on TV a nice comparison of each driver's laps and when in the stadium a chance to watch each car individually as well over a full hour. Not a bad deal.

    What does suck are the Sunday mornings as there is nothing going on. Time for Bernie to slip in some support series like F3000 or CART or anything. Heck I take racing loan mowers over the emptyness...
    :)
     

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